Tweak awaits the next Mac pro

[Tweak]

You know, one night at the Apple Store recently I ordered a new Mac Pro--all the bells and whistles I wanted. (4 GB, two 1TB drives, Xtra video card for a 4 monitor rig) Final cost was $4,995. Woke up the next day. No! Found i could save around $1200 getting memory and hard drives from somewhere else and applying for the education discount I am entitled to. That order was cancelled. Now I am ready to go again and before I do I go to Mac Rumors com. They say to wait it out... This topic is for those of us waiting for the next Mac Pro. For us to compare notes, hunches, dreams....Ok you get it.

[BF]

As much as I have entertained the idea, I really can't say that my G5 dual 2GHz isn't still getting the job done. I'm sure it will happen one day.

[Nanashi]

The new Intel Chips are supposed to come out this november. They are supposed to be the largest fundamental improvement to Intel platform in 4 years and well ahead of AMD. The thing is it has an integrated memory controller and DDR3 controller so much more bandwidth than the current AMD chips. there is strong evidence, that memory bandwidth greatly improves performance related tasks so for you definitely worth your wait.

The problem is will they come to the apple platform. Only one line of the Intel is coming out november and the rest don't come till 2009 (which is desktop line). The current mac pro is a dual processor machine. As was the last G5 if we investigate apples trends. It can go two directions, one is gainestown. The ohter Beckton. Beckton makes more since with apples current trends because it is more of a server platform than gainestown with FB Dimms and what not. It also is a behemoth CPU meaning apple could deliver a 16 core 32 thread machine (meaning at peak performance it would be roughly 6x's faster than the curent mac pros, and 12x's faster than the current I mac.) the draw back is it would keep apple uncompetitive against midrange PCs for a span of 8 months. While the current Mac Pro trounces all of the Desktop PC market, as it is a server marketd as desktop.. Another move Apple could make is release the 8 core gaines town and around christmas switch to the Lynnfrield platform. The other is for go the Lynn field platform, and stay on gainestown and upgrade to westmere. Which makes more sense from a manufacturing perspective.

At anyrate The earliest a new mac pro will come out unless apple decides to make their mac pro more like a PC Desktop than a pc server (which may be a short term sidegrade, as quad cores will remain the only option on regular PCs), will be after Christmas. It may be as late as March. Its up to you tweak. From my understanding the new Intel Chips are 60% faster clock for clock. They may be 75 to 80 % faster on sample based application. At the same time i question wheter even you need the kind of power they offer. M

Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Neha ... chitecture)

[Tweak]

Thank you NW for such an insightful answer. Do you think the current platform (Penryn) is dead? I was thinking Apple might up the specs to 3.0/3.2 ghz for the x-mas season and perhaps improve other specs like stock HD size. Maybe I am just dreaming.

My idea is to get rid of the PC entirely, so I want a Mac that can handle running lots of simultaneous tasks and 4 monitors. I'll be running win XP on the Mac alongside OSX. Final Cut pro is awful on my G5. Logic 8 is actually better on the G5 than when i ran Logic 6 and 7, but i can easily push it over the threshold.

[Nanashi]

Thank you NW for such an insightful answer. Do you think the current platform (Penryn) is dead? I was thinking Apple might up the specs to 3.0/3.2 ghz for the x-mas season and perhaps improve other specs like stock HD size. Maybe I am just dreaming.

Its sun is setting. By this time next year Core 2 will be dead (thats Allendale/Yorkfield/Conroe/kentsfield/Wolfdale), assuming Intel remains on schedule, and Core i7 will replace. At any rate the days of Core 2 being a highend platform are numbered. Once the new chips are released it becomes the lowend option. It does surprise me that the core i7 is coming to desktop before the Server. Since the Server is roughly 10x's the Desktops markets size.

[Bristol Posse]

Got to go with Nanashi on this one and advise to think about why you need that much computer. I built this machine based on the same dual Xeons that the current Mac Pro uses:
MOBO intel BOXD5400XS Dual LGA 771 Skulltrail D5400XS Extended ATX Motherboard
CPU 2 x Intel Core2 Extreme QX9775 3.2GHz 12MB L2 Cache LGA 771 150W Quad-Core (thats 8 CPUs)
CPU Cooler 2 x Zalman
RAM 8 GB Crucial DDR2 FB-DIMM ECC Fully Buffered DDR2 800
OS Drive OCZ solid state 64 GB
System and apps and Data drives 3 x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000GLFS 300GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache
Graphics 2 x BFG Tech BFGE981024GX2E GeForce 9800 GX2 1GB (512MB per GPU) in SLI config
Sound for games and video Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro 70SB055A00000
Case ANTEC P190 + 1200
OS Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit
optical drives 2x pioneer Blue Ray/DVD/CD burners

And while the mac pro spec isn't quite as high in it's current format it is far more computer than I will need anytime before somebody invents a realtime 3d interactive holographic user interface. If they do go with Dual i7s an the next incarnation then I guess you could lease the spare bandwidth to the CIA to break codes with but honestly I think I wasted my money building a machine like this and really unless you are in a server envirnoment I would look closely at why you want a machine that is basically designed to be a server and costs a lot more than a "Personal Computer" should take out of your buget

[davidaltemeier]

i guess i just can't imagine why you'd want to wait.....

i can launch literally every app i have at one time on mine (2.8 2X4) and it barely breaks a sweat....

assuming they stick with server parts, isn't ddr3 going to be super expensive? the ddr2 fbdimms have gotten waaaay cheaper then when the first MP came out.

[Nanashi]

DDR-3 and DDR-2 FB Dimms are about the same price. Especially since apple won't be using off Spec Sticks.

The question is the same price.

There may be one valid reason to wait. That is price drops. But still Its a tough call. I don't think you'll be dissapointed at all with the current mac pros performance.


Of course if you've waited 5 years to upgrade a daw and worked your butt off to save up 5K, you may wait and get your money's worth. Keep in mind there nothing significant on the performance front that will happen for 4 years after this. Small Clock speed increases, bus increases. But those who were early adopters of the Core 2 Quad in 2006, the fastest quad core CPU out now nearly 2 years later has a 7.5% Clock speed advantage, 50% more cache, a 33% Shrink, and 50% bus speed improvement netting a 15% to 20% faster at best. AMD doesn't get competitive this scenario is unlikely to change in the coming year. However this is an instance of CPU boost of 50% to 100% in multi threaded/multicore applications. I really don't envy tweaks situation. But If I were him and felt I needed one now, I wouldn't wait. If I was not really pressed for time, waiting might not be a bad Idea. Of course its not like tweak really needs my opinion or advice. He's been purchasing DAWs before I was in diapers.

Again as I said what would you use Nehalem for in the state of current software? you plan on using 72 instances of Waves Convolution Reverb on 72 channels of Native Instruments plugins in your next song.

[davidaltemeier]

but if they do go with 2X6 isn't there likely to be another (at least modest) bump in price compared to the current gen?

2X2 MP =$2500
2X4=$2800
2X6=??

seems like one might be paying a premium for power that's only going to get used if you're doing high end video rendering or something.
i dunno, either way it's a kick ass machine.

and tweak, how dare you even consider buying hard drives and ram from apple!!!

[Nanashi]

If they introduce one in 3 months its going to be a 2x4. 2x6 won't be out until the end of the year.

The prices should be similar unless apple wants to gouge their customers. They have been pretty good about not doing that on the base machine, instead high markups for extra drives, ram ectt. It makes the mac pro actually a bargain if you upgrade it your self.

the originally link was wrong, this is corrected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Neha ... chitecture)

I'm going to place bets that apple will go with gainestown for now, then upgrade to westmere. Especially since Beckton EX might be too expensive to put in the mac pro as it seems to be replacing the dunnington line. (2700$ 6 core chips that are out already for highend servers).

From the price list my guess is the new mac pro will have starting price of 3000$. at the base line.

[beesbeats]

I feel like even though the processors will jump in speed, the difference really won't hit until the next OS (10.6) comes out, which is supposedly doing something like being able to spread tasks across all cores, rather than assigning different tasks to different cores. It is called Grand Central if I remember correctly.

[Nanashi]

OSes can be updated. Processors require a new computer. Giving Intels road map, the good thing is there won't be a major upgrade for another 4 years other than increasing from 8 cores to 12 or 16 likely. This is a big jump in multicore productivity. Thats the biggest argument to wait. Intels current strategy relies on a very large processor improvement every 4 years, with minor marginal improvements every 2 years. Things are released top down, similar to GPU market, with the lowend and midrange following suit later down the road. Before Intel innovated off a processor design, and released higher clock speeds and steadily improved the processor until the final processor looked so different from the original processor.

Quick History Intel Pentium I(60-150Mhz) , Intel Pentium MMX(133-166MHz), Intel Pentium Pro (166-233MHz), Intel Pentium II=Pentium MMX+PRo (233-450MHz), Intel Pentium III (Pentium II+ New manufacaturing+ New Instruction Set called SSE) 450mhz-1.4GHz)


Processors largely innovated off previous processer discoveries.

Intel Pentium II introduced new line called Celeron. Celeron was a process use to recycle chips with defective caches or poor clock speed yield. Or recylce over stock of previous generation of cores. Intel Pentium II introduced Xeons Multiprocessor version of Pentium II. It is used to realize both Celeron and Xeon are not specific processors but a certain classification to existing processors being sold. Xeon automatically assumes multi processor capable with a few exceptions in the Core 2 line up. Celeron assumes a recylced previous generation. In otherwords to recognize Intel innovation.


illustrates a constant line of innovation... clock speed increased incrementally, with older chi


Net Burst. (Intel Pentium IV divergence from Pentium III) designed to achieve massive clock speed at expense of per clock effeciency helped with marekting). But within processor innovated largely off previous. Pentium III and Pentium IV had longest life span of processors.

Williamette (1.3-2.0Ghz 400MHz FSB .18NM manufacturing 256KB)-> Intel Northwood A (.13NM manufacturing, 512KB Cache 1.6Ghz-2.4Ghz)->Northwood B (533MHz FSB 2.26Ghz-3.06GHz)->Northwood C (800MHz FSB 512MB Cache 2.40GHz-3.2GHz)-> Presscott (.09 Manufacturing (2.8Ghz-3.8Ghz, unexpected heating 1&2MB Cache)-> Pentium D (.65NM Manufacturing, Dualcore 1066FSB eventually)

Largely incremental. small improvements to manufacturing were released as clock speed increased. Resulted in final Pentium 4s looked very different from original, largely pentium V.


Core 2. Processors introduced in lines. Top Clock speed introduced first, with midrange following

Innovation began first as a clear line from laptops
Pentium III->Pentium M (400MHz FSB 1mb Cache .13NM)->Pentium M Dothan (.13NM 533MHz 2mb Cache)->Core Duo (Dual Core Pentium M dothan)

Sudden introduction of Core 2. Duo, followed in a couple of months by Core 2 Quad (Ground Up design took elements of Pentium M and Pentium IV, 1066FSB 4mb Cache). 3.00Ghz Released almost immediately. The slower models faster. No innovation for nearly 2 years. Till release of (45NM die shrink, 6mb Cache on dual cores, and 1333MHz-1600MHz FSB and a 200 MHz net clock speed increasE).

Essentially lines aren't released gradually just suddenly, and left to milk for a while. Meaning right now you can hold on a new computer of it really being out dated. Someone who bought a midrange dual core desktop 2 years ago, still matches the fasted laptop/Imac availible to the market. Someone who jumped on a quad core still is in the upper midrange. This means that software innovations, won't leave there hardware sitting in the dust after 2 or 3 years. Since the current platforms still will not be to far behind the new highend platform interms of pwoer.

[Notch]

Well this is interesting because I'm looking to buy a mac pro myself. My PowerMac G4 just isn't cutting it anymore. Think I'm going to wait awhile until I spend my 4 grand on one. Maybe when Snow Leopard comes out and they upgrade processors I'll go ahead and make the purchase.

Also looking to have four monitors also. Wanted to buy the new 24 inch display with the built-in iSight Cam, but it's only for the laptops(which is think was a stupid decision by apple).

[davidaltemeier]

Also looking to have four monitors also. Wanted to buy the new 24 inch display with the built-in iSight Cam, but it's only for the laptops(which is think was a stupid decision by apple).

i thought you could get an adaptor for that?

[Tweak]

Apple announced there will be no new products between now and Xmas. MacWorld in January seems ripe for the launch of the next Mac pro.

[Nanashi]

I'm not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if the Revamp is until march. There at Intels mercy. Not anyone elses. Intel Desktop CPU's are about to be released but the server chips will still be a couple of months.

[Swami Digital]

Works for me, I wouldn't be able to think about affording one till March anyways!

-D

[Nanashi]

I know. But it must be a long wait for Tweak. He's been saving up for many months now I'm sure..

[davidaltemeier]

I'm not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if the Revamp is until march. There at Intels mercy. Not anyone elses. Intel Desktop CPU's are about to be released but the server chips will still be a couple of months.

yeah, i'm kinda with you on this one. macworld might be a little early. that's when they released the current gen, but the prior one was around for something like 18 months, wasn't?

[Nanashi]

Also the thing about apple is they don't exactly have to be on top of things. Unlike Dell or HP apples mac pro does not compete on the Server Market. There servers pretending to be desktops and the primary consumers are Mac Power Users. Meaning the IT Folks aren't sitting around waiting for Mac Pros with Nehalems. In the world of PC where server market eclipses the whole of the consumer market, you can bet that there are IT Depts that will buy from the first company that has these availible.

[Tweak]

The matter of upgrading is not simple for me. Here is a list of problems with the current Mac Pro I have to deal with:

1. the small HD size has to be replaced on day one, before anything else is installed.
2. Memory has to be purchased
3. A 2nd video card has to be purchased
4. New licenses to Logic and Final Cut Pro may have to be purchased
5. The UAD-1 card has to be upgraded to a UAD2
6. Komplete 4 has to be updated to Komplete 5
7. Atmosphere has to be upgraded to OMNISPHERE
8.Kore 2 has to be installed (takes a day).
9. I stand to lose at least $1000 of applications that ended with PPC versions.

[maytagman]

I'm on board with you Tweak/Mr. Rich!

I've been a wintel user since the ripe old age of 10, in 1995 when we got our first gateway. Now that Apple's made the (smart) move to Intel platform I have no problem picking one up. I just came off a job running Dell servers with nearly identical specs as the Mac Pro (although with big beefy SAS busses). I'm looking at snagging the dual 3.0ghz quadcore, now that we can dualboot to windows and get our REAL work done

To put it in perspective, our dual 2.66ghz xeon Poweredge servers were about $10,000, compared to 3500 for the dual quadcore macpro I priced out. Thanks to the last job, I have about 160GB of ECC RAM to upgrade my mac with, as well as quite a few 300gb SAS drives. As you mentioned you can save thousands buying ramkits on newegg, and where apple charges $400 for a 1TB drive, you can get them for $150. Although I doubt I'll wait for 6-core, I'll be waiting at least till January for the mando price-drop.

So here goes, taking the plunge after hating on mac zealots all these years! Best of luck Sir Rich.

Sidenote: I really did consider getting a G5 as the top-of-the line can be had for about $1200, but considering what I would've spent building a new tip-top PC, in addition to buying a mac-proprietary platform, I came in at much less just buying one new Mac Pro. Since I needed a new one of BOTH, I might as well have combined them into one machine.

[Nanashi]

I'm guessing your total investment in the end of the day probably exceeds the cost of a tascam DM3200.....

[davidaltemeier]

The matter of upgrading is not simple for me. Here is a list of problems with the current Mac Pro I have to deal with:

1. the small HD size has to be replaced on day one, before anything else is installed.
that's what install discs are for, right?

2. Memory has to be purchased
i got mine from macsales. i think prices have come down even further since then.

3. A 2nd video card has to be purchased
so you're still going to use 3 screens? that's gotta be sweet.
would this be the one option it'd make sense to get from apple?

4. New licenses to Logic and Final Cut Pro may have to be purchased
really? you have L8, right? mind if i ask why?

6. Komplete 4 has to be updated to Komplete 5
it does? i don't know if K4 is officially supported for leo, but NI did put up an installer fix, and i've been using 'em on my system with no problems for almost a year now.

9. I stand to lose at least $1000 of applications that ended with PPC versions.
that sucks. are you going to keep your G5 around?

[GirgleXL]

It's kind of funny. Some of you are waiting for the refresh to get the new Mac Pros, while I'm waiting for the refresh to a get a better price on the older models. Actually I have a question relating to this. Part of the Mac Pro's attractiveness is its upgradability, but does this apply to processors? I've been thinking about getting a low-end single quad core 2.66 GHz Mac Pro because I think that might be all I need for the time being. However, I might need something more powerful later, and I would probably want to insert another processor a few years down the road.

Is this possible?

Is it incredibly difficult?

Is it worth it?

I'm pretty sure this voids the warranty, which is okay, as long as I don't break my Mac in the process of changing processors. I'd appreciate any insight!