Mic PreAmp Poll $100-$250

[aww-de-oh]

No mention of the DBX anywhere here... Surely a dedicated solid state would beat the half-assed tubes in this price range...

this poll is over 3 years old..

[Equilibrium8]

Yes...And the DBX is in the poll, and nothing much has changed since then...Is still relevant.

[_controlfreak]

[And the DBX is in the poll.]

[Equilibrium8]

[And the DBX is in the poll.]

That is my point. It is in the poll, but nobody seemed to mention it in the follow up discussion. It seems everyone with $200 to spare, would rather buy a starved plate "tube" amp than a solid state.

[_controlfreak]

That is not my point, which is far more childish:



If you search for the term "toob," you'll see many-a-rant about this issue. Also, complaining about the very same things a particular top poster does is a sure-fire way to ascend the forum hierarchy and get all kinds of other cool bennies. I'm not kidding! Let it flow, this time with feeling and without the double post.

[Colin]

Can the DMP3 be mounted on half of a rack shelf?

[aww-de-oh]

Can the DMP3 be mounted on half of a rack shelf?

Looking at the pictures, and at the user manual.. it doesn't seem that it comes with the mounting holes/bracket. It's intended as a "desktop" unit.
I don't own one, so that's just an educated guess. I suppose you could rig something up..

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

I have the Tascam 2488neo...the effects are average & the preamps are garbage,but apart from those two areas of the recorder,the Tascam is top notch(for my particular needs).
That being said,I want to upgrade from my existing preamps-without going nuts & spending as much on a preamp,as I did on my Tascam.
I agree with what ControlFreak mentioned about going in clean & worrying about adding coloration later and the RNP would be great,but it's out of my budget & if it's not available through my usual retailers,then I can't be bothered anyhow.
So then....in order for me to bypass the tubes & other b.s.,it seems that my only option,is the M-audio DMP3.It has good specs,great reviews(& many of them),& I am a fan of many of their products,but the DMP3 is so cheap to buy..well...it makes me wonder about the quality...but almost certainly seems to be a significant upgrade from the preamps in my Tascam though.
Any additional feedback from the folks here would be great.........

John

[aww-de-oh]

Shumanitu,
IMO -any of these off of this list won't be a drastic upgrade from what you're using now.
That said, they will be usable.... if you keep the gain to a minimum. Most if not all of these will get hissy once the gain is cranked up.
again IMO- if it's possible to save a bit longer, you won't regret getting something that would be in your arsenal for a long while, instead of an incremental upgrade. I'm not saying you've got to spend thousands of dollars, i'm just trying to ward off dissapointment

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

Aw-De-Oh,

I appreciate your input,as it's practical....but I do need a bit more to go on-that is,something more along the lines of definitive,so as to give me some direction.
The DMP3 has a total of 67 decibals of gain and yet,you suggest to keep it to a minimum...is the DMP3 really that terrible...I mean,you say it's usable-but with all due respect,your description of it seems to contradict the word "usable"?

The only thing negative that I've read about the DMP3,is that if you use the hi gain button,it adds a some hiss...but I did not get the impression the the amount of hiss was catastrophic.
I'm using a $200 M-Audio interface for my pc & it works very well for me,so I-at this point,am not sold on the idea that the DMP3 is the wrong choice.
I had considered the Presonus Eureka at one point,but I could not jusitfy spending $499 on a preamp to be used with a multi-tracker that I paid $674 for...so there's my dilemna.

John

[Nanashi]

usable means it does what its supposed to which is amplify sound. Most preamps in this price range exhibit noise somwhere between 40 and 50DB, even though they usually have somewhere between 45-66DB of gain. You would not find any of these in a highend or midrange commercial studio. Most preamps in this price range are similar to the preamp in interfaces. Owel here who sells DIY mic preamps has done a good job illustrating why. Even turning a minmal profit, just to build a high quality 2 Channel preamp DIY is going to run about 300$ in components, then you have to factor the company has other costs to pay (labor, electric bills, a lease ect.) things like the RNP where you get high quality preamps for 500$ is acually really amazing.

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

Most people here seem to hand out advice as if the average studio hobbyist has an enormous disposable income.If that were true in my case,I would be purchasing everything I buy through Sweetwater-because for 1,I would not have to pay N.J. sales tax,secondly,I could speak to knowledgable staff & have unrivaled customer service.....but since my income is modest,I do quite a bit of business with Zzounds & A.M.C.-because of the payment plan and I am piss-tired having my spare income tied up in installments every month-as it has been for the past year.
It's easy for alot of folks here,to discard every preamp out there under $500,but how many of you actually have hands on experience with the M-Audio DMP3?The general consensus around here seems to be,that the DMP3 would not be an upgrade from the preamps in my Tascam,but how many of you(if any),have had hands on experience with the preamps in the Tascam 2488neo?
The phantom power in my Tascam is average,& all I want to do is upgrade from that and I'd like to be able to do this & pay for something in full,as suppose to tacking on more payments to my monthly budget.
I'm new to the preamp world,but I am not new to monitors,keyboards,mixers,audio cables & such and from what I've researched online,it seems to me that if I eliminate the tubes,compressors & EQ's from the preamps(all of which drives up the price tag dramatically) and I choose just a preamp...then why would I need to spend anywhere from 4 to $500 for a Grace M101 or an RNP....just because some professional studio engineers would not dream of having anything under $500 in their commercial studio??
Obviously-it's a no brainer,that something like the Samson C Valve is a hunk of excrement,because it's crammed with a myriad of extras(tube,enhancer,limiter & effects send) and it's only $89....but the M-Audio DMP3 has no extras,it's not rack mountable & it's made in China,so why it is impossible for you to believe that the DMP3 may just be more than just usable?
Alot of people out there think the Korg M50 is a joke,because it's only $1,100 ...but the sound quality,sequencer,guitar sounds & drum sounds are far superior to that of my Korg Triton Extreme and I paid almost triple for the Triton.
While I do agree that most preamps under $500 are less than adequate...I just don't think that the DMP3 is a preamp that should be ignored & I'm going to at least try it out for myself.
Sweetwater has an impressive amount of employees who are very knowledgable,as well as alot of their clientele and even those people are not as hyper-critical about gear as some of you people are.....which does not really make any sense to me,being that this forum is affiliated with a discount retailer that does not carry the same volume of professional gear,as does Sweetwater.
4 years ago,I started out with nothing & spent all this time building up my studio to a point were the functionality & quality suited my needs & I managed to do this for around $7,200...so that being said,I don't have the luxury & convenience of buying commercial quality based on a impulsive whim....so unlike some of the folks here,I have alot more hands on experience with "non-commercial" grade,or "mid-grade" gear that some of you folks would not dare to get your hands dirty with.
It may interest some of you to know,that I belong to a a music forum that is comprised of some of the most accomplished musicians & recording engineers I've ever come across,but like me,are on limited budgets gear-wise,but manage to produce stunning results recording-wise and who some of which,own certain pieces of gear that is of less quality than some of my gear.
There's alot to be said for thoroughly ultilizing what you have & making the most of it,by learning your gear & improvising.
I certainly don't expect the performance of the DMP3 to be close in contrast to-say,the Grace,but I do expect the DMP3 to out-perform anything that say,Presonus makes that's under $500...because it seems clear to me that the DMP3 is a very efficient design & so much so,that M-Audio has managed to bring decent quality to the budget market...........and the enormous amount of excellent reviews on this product can't all be hype & rhetoric.

[aww-de-oh]

ShumanitutonkaObWach:
I've tried most of these pre's. (i haven't tried the DMP3). I have the Presonus which i bought when the phantom power broke on my old interface, and i needed a quick cheap pre. Like i said, they all can be used... but will start introducing hiss at higher gain levels. ESPeCiaLLy when you start combining tracks that were recorded with pre's of this caliber, you will definetly notice. As soon as i could afford a better pre, i sold the Presonus.

That said, i've actually heard from some that use the DMP3 with decent results. It seems to me though, you've already made up your mind, and are searching for someone to agree with you.

We are not all rich here, and use what we can to the best of our abilities.. We are mearly trying to encourage you do avoid some of the same mistakes we made along the way.
If you can save up for one of the pre's mentioned, it will be something you will likely keep forever, instead of something you're looking to replace in a years time.

May i ask- what you're expecting the DMP3 to do, that your Tascam won't? If you need a couple extra channels of preamps, it's in the same league of what you have, and should do the job... if you're looking for an actual upgrade to your interfaces pre's.. well..

[Nanashi]

please for the love of god keep your text uniform color. It makes your post unbearably hard to read (and I am one of the moderators here).

We generally do not post recommendations outside of peoples budgets, provided they specify it in the first place. However, there is a point people must understand capital is a constraint the less you have your not going to get anywhere. It is very hard to make high quality recordings with out investing some money. Most of the recommendations for a startup studio here are in the 1000$ to 5000$ for new gear. Most professional studios have around a quarter of million invested. Most home studios doing professional quality work usually have 20-40,000$ invested. Bottom line is I don't think in the least we spend our time recommending very highend gear to anyone. I also know often times we tell people not to spend money on anything unless they're gear is holding them back. On top of that most of the pieces here that are recommended are at entry price points for professional gear, aimed at project studios or exceptional values. Most professional studios have monitors in the 3000-6000$ price range and mic preamps are in the few thousand dollar range (800-1000$ channel). Most of the recp,,emded upgrade pieces here are monitors that cost below 1500$, and mic preamps that cost few hundreds per channel, most of the microphones recommended here are staple microphones that cost less than 500$ not 1000$ botique pieces. At any rate go read gearslutz or prosounds (which has mostly professionals giving advice) if you think we are out of perspective and i think you will realize quickly out of the major recording forums were more respectful of peoples budgets by a considerable amount.




Generally on this forum the major reason 100$ to 250$ preamp ranges get 0 recommendations is that the average 500$ audio interface preamps, or your average mackie mixer are of similar quality. to buy them for an improvement is about the same as selling a 2009 Toyota Camry to replace it with a 2009 Honda Accord and expect an dramatic improvement. The money can be better spent just buy holding off for a 500$ unit. If you are unwilling to pay that cost, then don't upgrade. At the same time realize that you probably will be better off buying selective quality pieces of gear, provided you already have a basic setup that covers what you want to do on a minimum level (to record scratch demos or what ever your aiming for). Most people that basic setup is having some kind of recording device, usually an interface and a computer, a few microphones, a set of monitors, some software maybe some instruments or controllers. Once these essentials are covered, a few quality pieces are going to be what allows them to make the strides towards professional (assuming the skill isn't what is holding them back, which it often is. In the 400-500$ range you start getting units that are usable for someone aiming for a major improvement, and major improvements usually are in relative to professional quality. That being said the reason we recommend RNP to Grace is they are cheap in respective to professional units by a considerable amount. The RNP is 2 Channels for 475$. Most professional units cost 600-800$ per channel. Go to gearslutz and read their forum, they actually do what your accusing us of. You will see home studio users get recommended Great River, API, Chandler, Universal Audio essentially units that cost anywhere 800-1500$ per channel.


I personally think most home studios can reach for the sky provided they have covered things like having a good acoustic environment to both record and listen in, having enough microphones to cover there needs (having a well equipped tool box in otherwords), havine one or two decent preamps, some entry professional grade monitors (1000$ price range), and a decent software package. I'm not recommending APIs, or ADAM S2As and Nueman U87s or gefell microphones which is what you find in most professional studios. 1000$ in bass traps, a pair of Dynaudios (900$) an RNP, a few mid priced microphones that match your needs are going to take you a very very long way. The first 3 of those upgrades is the cost of an API3124 which is the type of units that are common place in professional studios.



That being said if your lookin for a cheap preamp that might be an improvement the DMP3 or the RANE MS1b is going to be the best bet. The difference is going to be a small one but it may be a slight improvement. If you can actually use a sauldering iron, Five Fish (Owel the DIY moderator) sells a diy preamp similar if not better than the Grace/RNP quality line for 200$.

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

Aw-De-Oh & Nanashi,

Thanks for taking the time to give your comprehensive responses-appreciate that.As for the DMP3...well..my decision is not a concrete one,but I was seriously considering at least trying one out & then returning it if I had to.However though,as you've both pointed out...making a larger investment in something you know for certain,is going to provide the desired result...sounds like the ideal route.
A very pressing issue for me though,is that I need to certain(within reason),that I do not end up paying for more than I need.Shortly after I had begun my search for a preamp,I began to discard the idea of budget amps & assumed I would have to go for mid-grade preamps....but I could not escape the reoccuring thought,that I should at least give the DMP3 a chance.
As for the preamps & phantom power in my Tascam...well...I simply cannot achieve a usable amount of gain,without having to add the built in effects to boost my vocals to an acceptable level and as a result,there's more ambient noise,distortion & hiss that I need to erradicate.
Despite all of my vocal techniques & mic placement,I cannot get the volume I need,without introducing the noise.
Being that it would be wise for me to avoid all of the pre & post effects in my Tascam,I've decided not only on a decent preamp,but also an external effects processor and that being said,I was re-considering the Presonus Eureka,as it does not have a tube,it's has variable impedance & it has the EQ & compressor(should I need to utilize these functions),as I have read excellent reviews on this unit overall.
The Tascam 2488neo is actually a wonderful recording tool,as I have produced excellent results with my instrumental works,but that's due to the fact that all three of my workstations have very clean effects,so there's no need for me to use the built in effects in the Tascam.
For both pieces of gear,I absolutely need to keep the cost under a grand...in order for me to make the payments-so that being said,the Grace design & RNP are out,because neither A.M.C. or Zounds carries them.
The reviews of the Eureka are excellent & their are many on the Sweetwater website and I have confidence in their opinions on gear...so I just may go that route....

[Nanashi]

Why can you not order somewhere other than zzounds or Amazon. The Presonus Eureka is not going to out class the effects on a good plugin and won't out class the DMP3. I really think your wasting your money going anything less.
Amazon deals FMR RNPs, as does Sam Ash Music, and Mercenary Audio. Sweetwater deals the Grace 101. The RNP is 2 Channels so I tend to recommend it (and its of comparable quality of the grace, which is why its such a popular preamp a 2 channel unit for 500$ that can hold its own next to 1000$ channel units (basically it could cost 2x the price and still expect to sell).


The truth is good plugins will out class any individual hardware effect (an EQ or Compressor) that cost under a grand. Which makes it very hard now adays to recommend any channel strip costing less than a couple thousand. The major reason the stuff like the Eureka sold is 5 years ago when computers were still under powered there was a market for low cost out board gear, as computer have gained in power, for low budget studios the best solution has become plugins. The only reason to use mid priced to low cost hardware is you don't use a computer in your setup, or you use it for tracking live or for live shows. Otherwise your best just using software. Eureka's preamp, Compressor, and EQ are comparable to a 150$ preamp, the average 150$ compressor, and 200$ EQ nothing fancy.

In my opinion if you want an preamp compression combo your best part is an FMR RNP+RNC or RNLA the RNC is one of the few value for the money compressors out there thats very transparent. But if you can avoid it I wouldn't use any out board at all.

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

I'm living on $900 a month on disability,as I retired early.I've never had a credit card & my credit rating is atrocious...since some dips**t receptionist filed my paperwork incorrectly & I am in "virtual" medical debt.That being said,I simply cannot make payments on gear anywhere else on earth,except Zzounds & American Musical Supply.I still have 2 more payments to make on my Tascam,before I can even think about making payments on anything else....so if I decide to by the Grace M101,then I'll have to wait at least 4 months...since I will have to save up for the purchase price in full.

So let me get this straight...now your recommending to me that I avoid outboard gear altogether??I suppose then-that while I'm at it,I should just sell my Korg Triton EX,my M50,my Mackie VLZ3 12 channel mixer,my monitors that I use for my hardware gear and my Tascam(that I'm still paying for) and just use software?
I managed to pick up a HP dual core 500GB tower for $300 when my other PC got decimated by a virus,but since I have Windows Vista,I only use Reason 4...since this is about the only workstation that is stable with Vista & if I were to add any other software,than my computer would most likely become inoperable at some point.
I bought the Tascam...mainly for the purpose of safely integrating my Reason 4 with my two other keyboard workstations.
I have already made attempts to combine my Korgs with my Reason 4 using my M-Audio interface & Audacity,but Vista shuts down the program every time.
With Windows Vista,I cannot even burn any DVDS,because Vista shuts down the DVD burning program every time as well.
The new Reason Record would be a wonderful program to use & it's extremely inexpensive for existing Reason users,but then I would have no choice,but to spend a small fortune on a custom computer,just so I could use all of my equipment together.
Sweetwater's bottom line Creation Station PC is a grand(which has the same specs as my HP),so I would probably have to spend at least $1,500 to have the ample amount of PC power.
I don't know what your game is exactly,but I myself,am not a computer geek that is all wrapped up in the computer software revolution,as all of the stabilility & compatibility issues make me nuts & I do not care to spend all of my time sitting in front of a computer,staring a virtual rack of gear.
I am a hands on person...I love hardware....I like to be able to just merely flip a switch & begin recording immediately.I am very happy with my set up the way it is,so I just want to improve my vocal recordings-that's all.
Thanks for your suggestions,but I am not doing a complete overall by converting to a %100 digital medium & the direction that this conversation is going is not helping me at this point...I don't know what I am buying yet exactly,but I don't give a s**t anymore....all I know,is that I do not want to spend the next few months being stuck without any decent means of recording usable vocals.

[EnlightenedHand]

You don't need anything more than a basic preamp, with useful design specs and a descent mic to record great vocals. The quality comes from the source performance, the room, the mic technique and the gain settings at the preamp. That's where it's at. If you can't get good vocals out of your setup then it's probably not the gear (assuming your gear meets the basic requirements of usefulness).

I don't think Nanashiwanderer is advocating that you get rid of all of your hardware. Even if you did, I don't think that would make you a "computer geek" (though spending your time posting on internet forums, and posting in different text styles all of the time might). I think that what he's saying is that it's MUCH less expensive to get high quality software emulations of classic hardware in a very comprehensive and flexible recording and mixing set up than to try doing the same and use exclusively hardware. Also, I think he's saying that most "affordable" hardware isn't as high quality as much of the high quality software emulations available for comparable prices.

Liz

[ShumanitutonkaObWach]

Liz,

Since I have only a couple years of experience with multi-trackers(which is around the time I became more serious about recording vocals),I certainly have not perfected my vocal techniques in a studio enviroment....but at this point,I've exhausted all of my trouble-shooting ideas,as to why my vocals do not have the required volume.
In any event though,I have concluded that any sort of upgrade would be beneficial and with the additional of an improved preamp-if at that stage,I am still having problems with my vocals...then it's clearly my fault as a vocalist and then I'll know that I'll have to double my efforts in my mic techniques to overcome my shortcomings.

I am unable to give any sort of definitive description as to the usable quality of the preamp,but I can tell you that the multi-effects & dynamics processors in the Tascam are average & not the most usable,so it stands to reason that the preamps are probably average & at least,are a small part of my problem.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being a computer geek,as it's ideal in terms of the cost/quality ratio,but for me,I would say that I am a hardware geek and yes-to a certain extent,I am a computer geek...since I spend alot of time doing research on the computer.
I am actually a big fan of Reason & Audacity,but only to a point,because I do not wish to abandon hardware at any point in the future,as for me,the combination of the two is ideal.
I am actually aware of the exceptional level of quality for the cost,in terms of software,as I spend quite a bit of time with all of the computer geeks on the Kara-Moon.com forum,but as I pointed out in my previous post,a powerful,effecient & stable computer(as you are obviously very well aware of),is a big investment and given the size of my hardware investment,it would not make much sense for me to go hog wild with a custom PC(even if I was in the position to do so financially).

-John

[Nanashi]

am unable to give any sort of definitive description as to the usable quality of the preamp,but I can tell you that the multi-effects & dynamics processors in the Tascam are average & not the most usable,so it stands to reason that the preamps are probably average & at least,are a small part of my problem.

That is the truth about most hardware under 1000$, its average and a lot of it is unusable ( I wouldn't touch an EQ besides maybe one of Tofts pieces, I'd use plugs instead.

Hence why most of us use DAWs and plugins. At any rate if you ever do move that route I wouldn't recommend creation station (They are rip offs for people who do not know better). A well configured business dell for around 600$ would work fine for a daw. However, given your tight on cash my recommendation is that you don't buy anything and just work in your limitations. You really aren't going to get huge gains over what your tascam has to offer spending money and are basically wasting it. If you were lacking a piece it would be a very different story, but your complaints are regards to sound quality.

[aww-de-oh]

At the end of the day, there's Information, Facts, and Opinions. How you choose to use them is entirely up to you.
From what i've heard, the DMP3 is probably the most usable out of the ones in this list.
If you are wanting a decent upgrade from what you are using, then my advice would be to save up a bit longer if you are able to. But that's just one person's opinion. What you do with your own money and studio is, of course, entirely up to you.
You asked for some opinions, and you got 'em.

[elperuano]

ShumanitutonkaObWach,

What mics are you using for vocals?

I use an SM58 and an SM7b with my m-audio DMP3 and have no problems with gain. If you really crank it, yes there is noise, but I find that I don't need to push it that far to get a usable signal for my vocals. My experience with the DMP3 has been that its definitely an upgrade from my m-audio fast track interface as well as a cheap Art Tube MP preamp. I have never used high-end preamps though, so I cannot say how it would compare to those.

As to what others have said about saving up for something you will NEVER need to upgrade, I think thats a valid point. I am happy with the DMP3, but know that someday I will want to try something like the Grace or P-Solo, to hear for myself the difference. You will save money in the long-run if you get something you will never upgrade.

The point is, if the DMP3 can work a gain-hungry SM7b, it should work for you! If you have a condensor mic, the gain should be even less of an issue.

Just some things to consider.

[Walker]

I'm guessing that either there isn't much interest, or no one has ever used the ART TPS 2.

I am shopping preamps but not specifically for mics. I stopped here for more info. I simply need a way to get some tube color while recording electric guitar direct into DAW. I don't have a tube amp, and wanted a more versatile preamp anyway. My interface is a bit of a preamp- but has no tubes.

I also prefer a rack mount to save desk space. The ad I saw says ART has a 3 year warranty, and the manual acknowledges that one might change tubes to taste. It can be used for electric guitar, but I rarely hear any comments about experiences with that ( for ANY tube pres).

If anyone does have knowledge of the ART unit, what did you find?

Thanks, Walker

[aww-de-oh]

I believe (but am not 100% certain) that the ART is of similar design to the Presonus Blue "Tube"

If it is, then it's of the 'starved plate' kind (which means there's not enough voltage going thru the tube), making it give out a bad kind of distortion instead of that 'true tube warmth'

If you want a low price Tube preamp from Art, check out the ART MPA Gold ($299 new)
http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--ARTMPAGOLD

It's a "real" tube preamp. With a tube swap (change the tubes to a better brand) it's really great deal.


>>You may want to consider something along the line of the POD amp modeler. Many have been getting good results with these, and you'll get a ton of different amp models to choose from. They are not too expensive either.
http://www.zzounds.com/prodsearch?q=line+6+pod+guitar+amp&form=search

[UnderDrive]

The dbx 286a is a quality piece
Sounds clean

Definately worth $200
I got mine on ebay in mint condition for $100
actually looking to get another...