Looking for information on DAW build.

[bretheweb]

Is there any advantage to using AMD/Intel?
I seem to recall reading that some audio software is optimized for Intel cpu's.
Is this an issue?

I want to run 2 x 74GB Raptors in RAID0 and a 300GB/16MB cache Maxtor... will these drives be too loud?

And is there a consensus on the quietest 400+W power supply?
Should I get a Koolance case and go water cooled?

I'm going to use the E-Mu 1820M system.
Should I get a mixer/control surface?

The plan was to use higher end quality components.
Is it worth it to go with the 64 bit processors?

Any input is appreciated.
Thanks.

[nmodi]

There's a user on the Sonar forums that posts his results (latency) testing different processors - don't know how he gets his hands on them all, but hey...the 64-bit Althons faired a bit better than the P4's with Hyper-threading, plus they had dropped the prices on them, so it clinched the deal for me. This was back in August. I figure I'll still have it by the time Windows and other software is running at 64-bit.

I like my Antec Sonata case - fairly quiet, although I'm sure you can get quiter, depending on the $$ you're willing to shell out. I found the Sonata a fairly economical solution.

[halfpower]

The AMD chips run a lot cooler than the newer Intel P4s. So your overall system fan noise will be less.

I do not believe there is a consensus on which 400W power supply is the quietest. There may be a few power supplies in the neighborhood of 400W that are fanless, but it might be difficult to get the right airflow with this type of power supply.

Right now there is no benefit to having a PC chip that is labeled as 64 bit. Perhaps in two or three years there will be. Some of the newer Pentiums (I'm not sure exactly which ones) are 64 bit.

[saiyr]

I wouldn't say that software was optimized for P4s so much as the P4s raw cycles per second. Of course, there's less of an advantage to that when you bring in the Athlon64 and its floating point calculations, blahblahblah. I'd say Athlon64. It's not that expensive.

[bretheweb]

This is what I've decided on so far.
To save cost I'm combining my audio and 3d/graphics/gaming computer, so there's some give and take on the components.
(I'll dual boot the 2 Raptors... one will be audio only (WinXP on both) while the other is 3d/graphics/video games sharing the dual 250-400's for storage)
The Koolance case fans are controllable as is the PSU fan so I'm thinking I can slow them down for audio.
The Acoustipack and fan/HD isolators should take care of any extraneous sound/vibrations.

My only real questions now are will the Audigy card play well with the 1820M card(I won't need the wordclock daughter card for now) and do I need PC4200 RAM(where is the point of diminishing returns for speed versus cost?)?

Motherboard:
MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum/SLI $172

Processor:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Socket 939 Retail box $245.00

RAM:
OCZ EL 1GB PC4200 Enhanced Latency Platinum Edition Dual Channel $368.00

Video Card:
BFG GeForce 6800 Ultra OC PCI-E $530.00(will SLI sometimes in the near future with second BFG card)

Sound Card:
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Plat Pro $201.00

Case:
Koolance PC2-C $160
(Combo with cpu waterblock, video waterblock, MB cooler kit and Antec TrueControl550 PS $363)

Power Supply:
Antec 550W TrueControl PSU $100.00

AcoustiPack™ $80

Hard drives:
2x WD Raptor 74GB x 2 $177.00 ea

2x Storage HDs 250-400GB $160-200 ea

DVD-RW: Black Lite-On SOHW-1633S $60

Various fan/hard drive isolators and lights and [deleted] $100

EmulatorX Studio Sampler with 1820M $600
Behringer B2031A Truth Active Monitors $300
Sony MDR-7506 Studio Headphones $90
Shure SM57 & SM58 $150

Roughly $4000 plus shipping, etc.

Future planned pickups: either Behringer UB2442FX Pro 24 or DDX3216 Digital Mixer, Presonus Eureka, Akai MPD16 USB MIDI Pad Control Surface, Behringer ADA8000, and either a Rode or Neumann high end condenser mic.
I've got a Radium 49 to go with my guitars, a GNX-3 and an Oktava MK-319.
I'll be running Cubase SX 3 and Reason 2.5/3 to go with as many softsynths as I can pick up.

Whadda ya think?
Can I make all these things play well together?

[Heretec]

i would strongly discourage you from buying a soundblaster.

check the interfaces section for lots of threads that might help you decide which audio interface is best for you.

[halfpower]

Whadda ya think?
Can I make all these things play well together?

If it was not for the expensive video card and the water cooler, I would have said that the power supply was a little hefty. I heard so many bad things about the drivers for the E-mu cards that I'm scared to buy one. As for the memory, I don't think it will run at the 4200 speed unless you're an overclocker. If you have four hard drives then they will probably need some kind of cooling. This might be built into the Koolance case, but I don't know. I've also heard some mixed opinions regarding the effectiveness of things like Acoustipack. I've heard they can dampen case vibrations, but don't actually acoustically insulate the case. Other than that it looks OK. NOTE: I'm not an expert.

[halfpower]

The AMD chips run a lot cooler than the newer Intel P4s. So your overall system fan noise will be less.

I should probably make it clear that this heat problem only exists with the Intel chips that have the Prescott core(these start at 2.8GHz or 3.0GHz). Older chips, going up to about 3.2GHz, do not have this problem.

[bretheweb]

i would strongly discourage you from buying a soundblaster.

check the interfaces section for lots of threads that might help you decide which audio interface is best for you.

Hey, thanks, but the Soundblaster is for game/general audio only, not for recording.
I was thinking I could disable in the audio version of XP and disable the EMu in the video version of XP.

[bretheweb]

If it was not for the expensive video card and the water cooler, I would have said that the power supply was a little hefty.

Yea, I was gonna go with a silent, fanless Antec Phantom 350 before I decided to combine computers.
The GeForce cards pretty much require that kind of power.

I heard so many bad things about the drivers for the E-mu cards that I'm scared to buy one.

Yea, I've read many reviews on the EMu 1820M and what it looked like was that the system requires actually reading the manual and that it made some compromises... like not getting any effects when recording at 196.

As for the memory, I don't think it will run at the 4200 speed unless you're an overclocker.

Oh, it'll run at 4200... I was just wondering if it the price/performance sweet spot was closer to 3200.

If you have four hard drives then they will probably need some kind of cooling.

Yea, I'm thinking I can hook something up to the Koolance water system.

I've also heard some mixed opinions regarding the effectiveness of things like Acoustipack. I've heard they can dampen case vibrations, but don't actually acoustically insulate the case.

Ok, thanks... this is good to know.
Obviously this stuff is like the other vibration dampening stuff, but it seems to have some acoustic foam inserts too.
I'll have to do more research on it.

Other than that it looks OK. NOTE: I'm not an expert.

Hey, me neither, which is why I'm looking for opinions.
Thanks.

[Thrash]

Hey is the athlon 64 3500+ your getting a 90nm or 130nm chip?

becuse i know the newer 90nm run at only about 64 watts and are way cooler, so less fan power is needed. While the 130nm's run at around 87 watts.

[halfpower]

I've read many reviews on the EMu 1820M and what it looked like was that the system requires actually reading the manual and that it made some compromises... like not getting any effects when recording at 196.

As for the memory, I don't think it will run at the 4200 speed unless you're an overclocker.

Oh, it'll run at 4200... I was just wondering if it the price/performance sweet spot was closer to 3200.

I would certainly like to get something like the 1212M, have it work well, and live up to its specs. I've had a couple people tell me to stay away from the internal sound cards and that I should get something with a break out box. I'm not totally convinced yet.

As for the memory, I was under the impression that the 4200 would not run that fast unless the front side bus was overclocked. PC3200 is sooo much cheaper than DDR2-400MHz. I might just get two gigs.

EDIT: I mean DDR2-533MHz not DDR2-400MHz

[halfpower]

i would strongly discourage you from buying a soundblaster.

What is so bad about having a soundblaster installed?

[cornieleous]

where is the point of diminishing returns for speed versus cost?

Much lower than you are spending. I personally think you are wasting your money on well over half the system-that is to say, I would rather buy good studio gear than waste money on half of that or more I can build an equivalent machine for less than 1000 (not counting the extra HD's, video card, other bells and whistles that do not affect performance)

I am certainly not trying to discourage you from this, I am just posting my opinion because I see so many systems that are like a show car lately. In 1 year that 4000 dollar box will be obsolete. I never buy the top of the line because in 6 months to a year everything is half price anyway.

I am seeing a lot of these flashy systems, but most of them don't run well because they get too complicated.

Thats my opinion.



Dave

[bretheweb]

Much lower than you are spending.

I was referring to the RAM.
I haven't gotten into the minutae of determining just exactly the best price/performance point for a system like this.

I seriously doubt you could get the same or even similar performance from lower quality/lower priced components.
As a matter of fact, I know you couldn't.

I personally think you are wasting your money on well over half the system-that is to say,

Would that be the half that is doing 3d/gaming?
Because that was the point of making this all-in-one and not 2 boxes.

I would rather buy good studio gear than waste money on half of that or more I can build an equivalent machine for less than 1000 (not counting the extra HD's, video card, other bells and whistles that do not affect performance)

Doubtful.
Especially for a box designed to do 3d, play games and DAW.
And there really isn't any more studio gear I'm inclined to buy just now.

Sorry, but I've looked into lower cost boxes and they all have their flaws.
Between the water-cooled case and the Antec PSU, the box can be made whisper quiet.
When I need extra cooling it is available.
The only other option for the video card was to move into the $1000+ Quadro series.
I've yet to find a better price/performance value than the 1820M... the $900 MOTU box is close, but it's almost double in price.
I could get a lower priced Audigy card and might if I can't get a deal on the Pro.
And I'll probably end up with PC3200 RAM but get 2GB instead... but that all depends on the point of diminishing returns.

I am certainly not trying to discourage you from this,

Don't worry, you won't.

I am just posting my opinion because I see so many systems that are like a show car lately.

Thanks, but I was really looking for more constructive input.
I really can't imagine how you've confused this box for a "show car".
This is more like one of those extended-cab, long-bed, turbo-disel dualie work trucks than my dad's short-bed Dodge. lol

In 1 year that 4000 dollar box will be obsolete.

Now that is just silly.
In one year this box won't be cutting edge, but it'll be less obsolete than your $1000 box.
Guaranteed.

I never buy the top of the line because in 6 months to a year everything is half price anyway.

As will everything in your $1000 box.
Your point?
Playing the "waiting for prices to drop" game is pointless, after all.
The prices *will* drop... and waiting only means you don't have the box in the meantime.

I thought about going the "second generation" route, but it's gonna be a while before something displaces that 6800 Ultra and that 10K Raptor and the performance gain is just too much to cheap out on.

I am seeing a lot of these flashy systems, but most of them don't run well because they get too complicated.

You're kidding, right?
What sorts of systems do you think music studio's and animation houses use?
$1000 boxes?
Hardly.

Thats my opinion.

It's a shame there wasn't more than just your opinion as I was really looking forward to more constructive input.

[cornieleous]

It's a shame there wasn't more than just your opinion as I was really looking forward to more constructive input.

Quote:
Other than that it looks OK. NOTE: I'm not an expert.

Hey, me neither, which is why I'm looking for opinions. Very Happy
Thanks.

I though you WERE looking for opinions in this thread


A few additional comments:

RAM - Doesn't the MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum/SLI only support up to DDR 3200? Thats the specs I have read on it: http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1734 That would save a bit of cash on memory as well.

Also, if you want a solid power supply with no noise at all (no fan): www.silenx.com. Their PSU's have active PFC and come in a range up to 550W. CORRECTION - the fanless PSU's only come in at 460W, however their other silent PSU's are available up to 600W. I can vouch for these PSU's performance, owning two (520W and 450W).

You're kidding, right?
What sorts of systems do you think music studio's and animation houses use?
$1000 boxes?
Hardly.

Apple Macs. Most professionals, especially those working with video, avoid Windows and the PC platform.

Playing the "waiting for prices to drop" game is pointless, after all.
The prices *will* drop... and waiting only means you don't have the box in the meantime.

I disagree. Usually a majority of games and applications cannot even take advantage of the latest hardware until it has been on the market for some time, long enough for hardware prices to come down. In effect, I am not missing much (if anything) during this time by not having the extra muscle in my machines.

Thanks for the discussion.

Dave

[bretheweb]

See, now that wasn't hard, was it?

Opinions aren't of much use if they don't come with information.

Thanks for the input on the MB and PSU.
It looks like PC3200 will be the way to go then.

Apple Macs. Most professionals, especially those working with video, avoid Windows and the PC platform.

And how much of a G5 can you buy for $1000?
Exactly.
And it isn't entirely true that they *avoid* PCs, it's just that Macs make it easier for them to buy a box that allows them to focus on their job and not the intricacies of the box...
Hell, if Mac software wasn't so damned expensive I might have gone that route.
But that is an entirely other eternal flame war.

I disagree. Usually a majority of games and applications cannot even take advantage of the latest hardware until it has been on the market for some time, long enough for hardware prices to come down. In effect, I am not missing much (if anything) during this time by not having the extra muscle in my machines.

The extra muscle, in this case I'm supposing you're talking about the video card and Raptors, actually *is* being utilized by a number of games/apps... especially 3d games and apps.
SLI is supported by quite a number of games I play and that much video horsepower, while not in the Quadro, et al, range, is always useful as I will be doing video editing as well 3d rendering.
And if you've ever done any video FX/video editing/3d rendering you know that there is no such thing as too much speed/muscle.
And my experiences with my current box and softsynths/real time effects tells me this is true for much of audio as well.

If I were using this as a general purpose "home entertainment system" or if I didn't want specific brands of component, you would be absolutely correct... I mean I could prolly knock off $500 just by not using a BFG card and ditching the Raptors.

But I'm not... this box has to be that *and* a workhorse.
High performance *and* stable... I could have easily gone the OC route but that'd have defeated the purpose.
It was becoming prohibitively expensive to construct two boxes, one DAW, the other 3d/graphics/gaming so I combined them.

And with feedback from other folks in the know I've altered the construction quite a bit.
Now I think I've got to focus on the RAM issue and hope Directron doesn't raise the price of that Koolance case again.

Thanks