Audio PC

by **biohazard** on Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:52 pm

Hi, I am completely new to PC recording and have just become interested in venturing into this field of things. I was browsing through for the hardware (the cards and I/O devices and software etc) when someone recommended this forum and I browsed about on it a bit. I've noticed your all talking about these specialist PC's for recording. Is it really necessary to have a PC specialist to recording music, and if you do build one, is that all it should be used for or can you use it for other things like your work and browsing the net (this forum

) etc? Thanks for any information, as I say, i'm just completely new to all this, and just like I have done with guitars etc, i'm going to try to build my knowledge up asap but steadily. And there is a vast amount of information to go through.

Thanks for any responses.

by **Jeff** on Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:52 pm

you can definitely use the same computer for everything (I do), but that doesn't mean its necessarily a good idea. Internet applications and all sorts of extra stuff on the computer can harm your productivity and hog resources. Ideally you want a completely separate machine.

Jeff

by **biohazard** on Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:03 pm

When you want to record, can you not close down all other applications and almost empty your system tray so you have freed all possible resources before recording.

My basic computer idea is:

2.5ghz+ processor (Intel or AMD)?
At LEAST 512mb RAM
At least around 80gb hard drive

what else is essential.
I have no idea how to choose the right motherboard (obviously it depends on whether I choose AMD or Intel, but still, I have no idea how to choose a motherboard after that). Some of the specs of motherboard I don't understand. (i am good with computers but not hardware side).

Some of the processor specs I dont understand either.

Common terms that baffle me are: FSB, processor socket type, cache, etc

Will it also end up being cheaper than buying a computer new?

Thanks for anymore information. Hopefully it won't take me too long to build up my knowledge of all this. I hope to be up to speed and on a similar level to all you guys as soon as I can.

Thanks for the help and thanks for being patient.

by **Jeff** on Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:06 pm

yes, you can close down all other apps, but its just not optimal. Thats what I do, so its clear that its possible, but its just not a real good idea to use your audio computer for the 'net all the time as well.

I can't help you much w/ hardware like that, I'm a laptop and software kind of guy. FSB is front side bus though, i know that much ;)

Jeff

by **mcatalao** on Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:51 pm

Hi...

There are some problems on using an "all round" pc, for music and every else...

I can agree if you wish to use your pc for music and Office, but if you plan to run games or surf the net, then i totally desagree with that...

Though if you can only manage ( i mean $$$) 1 machine you can work various solutions...

1 - The safest

The dual boot system:

This is the safest one, 'cause you need to tweak a lot your windows installation for Music...
Also some tweaks will disable net features (believe me, it is the best way...), you will have to deactivate a lot of services...

You can make a dual boot system with the same OS, but you can also create a dual boot dual OS system like a Red Hat and Windows...

2 - Profiles...

These is other option, working with user profiles, and hardware profiles, but not as efficient.
Also you can't controll as much as a complete tweak down (services, group polices, etc...)

Other things you can do...

Use a second shorter machine (your old pc, a friend's old laptop you can afford, etc)...
Even if it is slower than the new pc, it will be enough for surfing and downloading... believe it.

And the games???? Buy a playstation!!!! Or simply grow up (a difficult task for a musician, ehehe).

ehehe

hah "FSB, processor socket type, cache, etc"

FSB - Stands for Front Side Bus.
Processors work with a clock definition and have an internal multiplier...
I.E. - a pIV 3e will have a FSB of 800, multiplied by 3,75... But this multiplier for an old PIV is greater to have the same speed... PIV 800 fsp are stabler thant 533 ones... because they need smaller multipliers...

Socket type...

Socket is the mainboard connector for the CPU, it simply is a plastic piece with a lot of holes in it!!!
The type specifies what socket works for each processor type, and it depends on pin numbers, dimensions, integration level and tecnhology...

cache:

This is the processor internal memory... It has the SFR (Special function register - An register array for special data storage, like accumulators and carry flags, Registers and other specific memory boxes), and the processor instructions set. the Lx specifications is for the level of the instruction sets. Normal instruction sets are L1, L2 and L3 on xeon processors...

Feel free to post the "etc"...
eeeheh

by **biohazard** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:23 am

hi, wow thanks for the response.

A dual boot system sounds like a good idea. Something to consider, is it hard to set up etc?

I dont play a lot of games so I can save money by not buying a graphics card.

How do I choose the right components etc?

Thanks to anyone who can give any information an dthanks to you guys who have already replied to my questions.

by **Weok** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:51 am

If your setting up a dual boot system, you NEED the second copy of Windows XP (or whatever OS your using) on another partition/hard drive.

Most OS install CD's are bootable and if you're installing to a new hard drive, they usually prompt you during the install to specify how big you want each partition. You may have to go in your BIOS to make your CD-ROM drive bootable.

To make a dual boot system, you basically install your OS on C and then again on D. Most OS' will setup a boot menu that allows you to choose which one to start.

If your just using one hard drive, make sure you split the disk space up when you install your OS initially. If you have an 80 gig drive, you can setup two 40 gig partitions. The smallest partition size I'd recommend would be around 15 gigs.

I'd also suggest getting a DVD burner so you can backup your data.

A great site to learn more about PC hardware is http://www.tomshardware.com . They have reviews of motherboards and other handy info.

by **mcatalao** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:01 pm

Hi...

Read my comments above...

Weok wrote:If your setting up a dual boot system, you NEED the second copy of Windows XP (or whatever OS your using) on another partition/hard drive.

>> You need a second installation... But you can mirror the first one to the second...

Most OS install CD's are bootable and if you're installing to a new hard drive, they usually prompt you during the install to specify how big you want each partition. You may have to go in your BIOS to make your CD-ROM drive bootable.

>> Always!!!! You have to instal Windows from the cd...

To make a dual boot system, you basically install your OS on C and then again on D. Most OS' will setup a boot menu that allows you to choose which one to start.

If your just using one hard drive, make sure you split the disk space up when you install your OS initially. If you have an 80 gig drive, you can setup two 40 gig partitions. The smallest partition size I'd recommend would be around 15 gigs.

>>i'd suggest another config...
Let's take the sam 80 gb config...
Music OS - 5 gb
General OS - 20 GB
Music Install Partition - 10 GB
Music Data - 45 GB...

I'd also suggest getting a DVD burner so you can backup your data.

A great site to learn more about PC hardware is http://www.tomshardware.com . They have reviews of motherboards and other handy info.

by **Jeff** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:06 pm

Allright, just out of curiosity here.

I've got a laptop. It had a 30 gig internal hard drive. Would I be better off to split it into two 15 gig partitions, use one for just screwing around and taking notes and surfing the net, and one for audio?

If I decided I wanted more than 15 gigs apiece for that, would it be feasable to run my OS on a firewire mounted HD? Set up the comp where it boots to the internal HD for just screwing around, and make my 60 gig external drive house my OS for recording, and my 160 gig external drive be my primary drive for the actual recordings themselves?

Or is that just too bizarre?

Jeff

by **biohazard** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:52 pm

That 80gb system with four partitions sounded confusing to me. Why can't you just split it in two. One for general purpose and the other for all music related stuff. What are firewire hard drives. Why would they be better than a standard.

Ok but what about hardware for this thing. What motherboards are the best, processors etc.

by **mcatalao** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:40 pm

Biohazard,

There is a reason for the 4 partition system based on the following:

You should separate the audio files from the OS. So you need this partition, and even be better with an exclusive hdd.

You should separate the sampling files (vsti's, gigasamplers, etc) from the OS. But then again, they cannot be on your Audio partition/hardrive... So you will need a second partition/hdd...

You wish to separate two OS to create a dual boot system, so you need a third partition.

And you need the music OS partition... Notice, even that you have all in the same hdd, indexing is faster if you have logical partitions...

Anyway, if i were you, and thinking on buying the stuff, i would go for a 2 hdd system, where you could make three partitions in the first one (OS1, OS2, Sample Files) and the other hdd (and i'd invest on a fast driver like a sata maxtor with 8 mb buffer) exclusive for audio files.

My example:

PIV 3G, MB Asus p4pe deluxe,
512 mb ram
1 maxtor 20 gb - Partition1 for OS partition 2 for Sample Audio Files and Other installations.
2*80 GB hdd on a Raid Array
dvd recorder (16x +-, dual layer)
dvd rom
geforce 400
2x STaudio DSP 200 cport interfaces

Jeff...

I've never tried to run OS from an external drive, but i know it is possible...

Anyway, if i had a firewire hdd i would keep it for audio files and music projects, since you can grab it and take it from a studio to another simply plugging it off an on!

Also two hdd, hang on a firewire... Where is your interface???? Flying in the air? PCMCIA? USB 2.0 (ueaaagh!!!)????

Things are already difficult in standart setups...

by **Jeff** on Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:13 pm

interface is firewire too, yet for some reason i've had no problems with 2 hard drives in the chain as well. I do firewire from computer to MOTU to HD1 to HD2.

Perhaps i'll try installing windows on the small one, I dont use it for much now that i have the bigger one, i dont see how it could really hurt much

However, I wont do that for a few days, so if YOU see how it could hurt much, let me know before then ;)

Jeff

by **mcatalao** on Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:53 am

Jeff,

All this is a try-fail thing...

Your idea is valid, the integration is teoretically correct, but you have to test it!!!!

Good luck.

by **biohazard** on Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:53 pm

Hi, ok why do I need four partitions. There are people all ove rthe place doing PC recording on their home computer, without spliting files up like that. How come they all need splitting up. How can you run a partition without an OS on it.

My next lot of questions is this:

Is a desktop important for doing pc recording. Or can I use a laptop. Whatever I choose, I will be using at university too. And for university i'm thinking that a laptop is far mor epractical. But it depends whether I can still do PC recording with a laptop.

I have been hearing good things about the AMD processors. Would using an AMD processor over Intel pose any problems or complications. Thanks.

by **Weok** on Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:16 pm

Partitions are just a way for you to split a large hard drive into smaller chunks. You can have up to 4 partitions on a single hard drive in most cases. When you partition, you want to make sure you get the sizes right the first time. It can be a HUGE pain to fix later if you make a partition too small.

If you can have multiple hard drives, you'll be better off. I usually have a hard drive for my OS and a seperate drive for storing any audio I record.

I avoid storing any data on my OS drive. If Windows XP craters, I can wipe it out and not worry about loosing my audio.

How are you capturing audio? You can use a consumer level sound card if you don't have anything else, but the sound quality isn't that great. Check the Audio Interfaces forum for more info.

The desktop is great if you plan on keeping your PC in the studio. Hardware is typically cheaper for desktops. You can buy replacement parts off the shelf.

If you keep your PC in the studio, you probably need to look at www.silentpcreview.com. That site has great info on getting your PC as quiet as possible.

If you need to be portable, the laptop is the way to go. You really want to get an external audio interface for your laptop. I've never been happy with any laptops built in sound capability. The only downside is, you may be stuck dealing with whoever sold you your laptop for parts.

As far as processors, I'd look at the software you plan to run and see what they recommend. AMD has some 64 bit chips out now, but I haven't heard of any audio software taking advantage of it yet. The same thing is true of Intel's hyper threading.

by **biohazard** on Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:22 am

Ok thanks for the response. So a seperate partition for ALL audio stuff is to kee it safe in case the partition windows is on crashes.

I take it that you can't build your own laptops or replace as many components as is possible with desktos. So that could be another disadvantage I guess. I think I will probably have to look into specs of audio interfaces and software to see what I need then try and make decisions from there.

by **mcatalao** on Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:55 pm

Hi folks!

"So a seperate partition for ALL audio stuff is to kee it safe in case the partition windows is on crashes."

Not only!

As i said, indexing is faster for an half hdd partition than in a whole hdd partition, particularly if you have the OS and the swap file in one hdd.

"Is a desktop important for doing pc recording. Or can I use a laptop. Whatever I choose, I will be using at university too. And for university i'm thinking that a laptop is far mor epractical. But it depends whether I can still do PC recording with a laptop. "

Well, desktop have "larger" specs and possibilities than laptops... You can easilly upgrade your desktop, however your laptop will stay almost as it is... Though, if you need to go portable, be shure the model you buy has a built in firewire interface. This is the safest way to connect a laptop to an Audio Interface.

Good Luck!

by **Dugz Ink** on Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:22 pm

I still prefer having two drives, because that gives you two sets of hard-drive heads, and two buffers. Otherwise, your hard-drive heads are reading the data from one partition to the buffer, then qucickly moving to read data from another partition. Granted, your computer can still only handle a certain amount of data per millisecond, but at least it's not waiting for your hard-drive heads.

As for the dual-boot thing... I'm wondering about setting up two different profiles in Win 2000/XP. We do that at the office for one of the mutual laptops (used for off-site work) so that each project manager can have their own setup. Has anybody tried creating a "user" that only did games/internet, another "user" that that only did audio recording? That might decrease excessive drivers and apps from being loaded.

BioHazard wrote:My basic computer idea is:

2.5ghz+ processor (Intel or AMD)?
At LEAST 512mb RAM
At least around 80gb hard drive

That looks fine. My DAW is a 2.7gHz Athlon on an ASUS A7V8X motherboard (which isn't quite as good as the A7N8X)... and it can handle almost anything I throw at it. Once in a while I add too many plug-ins to too many tracks... but I could probably do better if I added another 1/2 gig of RAM. (I would rather buy more guitar parts than more RAM.)

If you're building your system, do yourself a big favor: spend the money on a good (quiet) +400w power supply and some big (quiet) fans. If you don't have enough power or cooling, things won't work right. And if it makes too much noise, it will irritate you everytime you try to record.

D~s

by **biohazard** on Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:53 pm

Yes I have noticed there are more capabilities with desktops than laptops. I may build a desktop and just take one of my parents laptops to uni for the uni work etc to take to lectures etc.

Is it worth looking into an AMD 64bit processor or does nothing support this yet?
What is the difference between IDE and SATA hard drives?
Can building your own system really be cheaper. All the prices i've been totalling up recently (hd, processor, mobo, memory, vid cards, fans, cases, monitors keyboards mouses etc) come to either same price or more than an off-shelf PC.

Thanks for any more info, i'm likely to have more questions later on, hope no one minds.

by **mcatalao** on Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:26 am

Biohazard,

read my comments above...

biohazard wrote:Yes I have noticed there are more capabilities with desktops than laptops. I may build a desktop and just take one of my parents laptops to uni for the uni work etc to take to lectures etc.

>>That's a good idea!

Is it worth looking into an AMD 64bit processor or does nothing support this yet?

>>Don't know really... Theoretically, you could work with twice the size, but applications need to "know" how to work with 64 bit processors. I believe, Cubase SX3 recognizes the 64 bit processor... Take a look at their site!

What is the difference between IDE and SATA hard drives?

>> Different connectors, different technology, and different data rate transfers... The main difference is that for ATA 133 drives you can have up to 133 mb/s transfers, sata you can go up to 150.

Can building your own system really be cheaper. All the prices i've been totalling up recently (hd, processor, mobo, memory, vid cards, fans, cases, monitors keyboards mouses etc) come to either same price or more than an off-shelf PC.

>> Yes... And no... In our case Yes... Pay atention on what components are used in the prebuilt pc's. Frequently the mainboard, VGA and others are cheap elements on the system...
What you gain on builting your pc is that you controll what you put there!
Anyway you can find some stores that have configuration services...

Thanks for any more info, i'm likely to have more questions later on, hope no one minds.

Good Luck!

by **biohazard** on Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:48 pm

Thanks for the advice.

by **biohazard** on Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:22 am

I have heard that the ASUS A7n8x Deluxe board I mentioned is becomming old. Can anyone comment on this and suggest another board that is more up to date?

by **smithy** on Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:57 pm

Abit NF7-S is about as old but is very reliable. But I would stick with the board you have till you upgrade to A64 systems. Let you know AMD is phasing out 754 sockets soon so they can concentrate on 939's.

by **biohazard** on Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:08 am

Is there an AMD 64-bit on the 939 sockets? Im wanting to build a new computer, thats why i'm asking about Mobo's, so you would suggest not bothering to get a mobo for AMD Athlon XP and go for A64

by **Johnny Digital** on Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Wait a bit for the new nforce3 stuff to get cheaper and the invest

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