overclocking a DAW?

[SoulFood]

i'd just like to know, what do you think about overcooking a DAW.
i can imagine that better cooling system (air cooling) is louder and no sound isolation could be applied to the computer (it is a good termo isolation too...)

thx!

[Dugz Ink]

I've never heard the term "overcooking"... do you mean "over-clocking" ?

D~s

[kernmount]

I think he means over-heating. Maybe?

Overheating should not be a problem.

As for overclocking...I like it a lot, but you have to be careful and know what you're doing.

[SoulFood]

overcooking...

sorry, yes i meant over-clocking...

i don't know why i had cooking in mind... maybe i should go eat something...

i don't have a seperate room, where i could keep my comp, so it sould be really quiet. what would be a good sound isolation, wich would be compatible with a higher temperature and less airflow? i could build a iso box for the comp or buy acoustic foam for the comp (applied on the inside) but i'm worried about filling all the extra air holes...

any suggestions?

[kernmount]

overcooking...

sorry, yes i meant over-clocking...

i don't know why i had cooking in mind... maybe i should go eat something...

i don't have a seperate room, where i could keep my comp, so it sould be really quiet. what would be a good sound isolation, wich would be compatible with a higher temperature and less airflow? i could build a iso box for the comp or buy acoustic foam for the comp (applied on the inside) but i'm worried about filling all the extra air holes...

any suggestions?

Start Here:

http://www.quietpc.com/

[cornieleous]

yes i meant over-clocking... Smile

i don't know why i had cooking in mind... maybe i should go eat something...

i don't have a seperate room, where i could keep my comp, so it sould be really quiet. what would be a good sound isolation, wich would be compatible with a higher temperature and less airflow? i could build a iso box for the comp or buy acoustic foam for the comp (applied on the inside) but i'm worried about filling all the extra air holes...

any suggestions?

Processors are cheap these days, and powerful. Overclocking is hardly worth doing anymore unless you are a hobbiest or a gamer on the VERY cutting edge, and actually need to OC. Overclocking reduces the life of your processor by about 50% in some estimates (from perhaps ten years to maybe 5, which may or may not matter to you) The worst part of over clocking is indeed the heat generation, which in my opinion is not worth it.

If, however, you insist on doing this, the absolute quietest cooling solutions I have found is from a company called SilenX.

www.silenx.com

All SilenX case fans run on average at 14dbA. I have a SilenX heatsink/cpu fan, power supply and case fans on my DAW and the loudest thing on my machine is the Seagate Barracuda V 7200.7 hard drive which is know to be an extremely quiet drive. (too bad the newer S-ATA Seagate drives are not so silent.)

Dave

[owel]

Overcooking a DAW? You mean like this?



http://studio-central.com/phpbb/viewtop ... burned+cpu

[cornieleous]

Overcooking a DAW? You mean like this?

And it smells as good as it tastes......





Dave

[Heretec]

i've got my system over clocked, but only slightly.

it's a 2.53 ghz P4 running at 2.7 ghz. temperature is not an issue for me. my cpu hits only 50 degrees C under full load. but for whatever reason, i am limited by stability issues. if i clock it any faster than 2.7 some of my apps become unstable and i have to reboot a lot more often, which is more trouble than it's worth.

a long long time ago i melted a 25 mhz 486 by running it at 40 mhz. the 60% speed increase was nice while it lasted.

but honestly, i have to agree that today cpus are fast and cheap, and there isn't all that much to be gained.

[cornieleous]

i've got my system over clocked, but only slightly.

it's a 2.53 ghz P4 running at 2.7 ghz. temperature is not an issue for me. my cpu hits only 50 degrees C under full load. but for whatever reason, i am limited by stability issues. if i clock it any faster than 2.7 some of my apps become unstable and i have to reboot a lot more often, which is more trouble than it's worth.

I was curious how or where you measuring temperature? Most temps posted in bios or read by motherboard probes and inputed into software are not completely accurate. Posted temps are almost always lower (in some cases by 10-15 degrees celcius) than the actual temperature on the processor die. Meaning your 50 celcius could actually be 65 celcius.

My best guesses based on experience about stability issues related to overclocking is:
1) manual clock multiplier setting in the bios causes instability. Usually computer will not completely boot if you have badly mangled these settings, however.
2.) Temperature caused instability can be observed by random computer behavior such as unresponsiveness and freeze ups after the OS has booted. Sounds more along the lines of what you described.


Just thought to share my experience...

Dave

[Heretec]

interesting about the temp sensors. the cpu should be able to take up to 90 degrees, so even with a 15 degree margin of error i am well within limits.

i suspected a heat problem at first, but further testing suggested it was something else. at the next clock stepping, it is unstable every time, even immediately after a cold boot. at the current clock stepping, it is reliable every time, even after running hard for days on end (i run the seti@home screensaver). i suspect the memory, but it's not a big enough deal to worry about. i'm happy with my current performance, and when the time comes for more juice, i'll probably go for a dual proc motherboard.

[cornieleous]

i run the seti@home screensaver

Me as well. Have you heard of LigandFit?




Dave

[SoulFood]

Heretec, do you have any sound isolation?

common sence tells me that absorbing materials in kits increase the temperature in the comp. ofcourse using bigger, better and quieter fans gets rid of this kind of problems, but that's expensive...

[Heretec]

i don't have any sound isolation, but i was thinking of adding some. my system has a lot of fans. 2 in the power supply, 1 on the cpu, 1 internal fan blowing on the pci cards, and a big fan that pulls air into the case.

average fan speed did not go up at all with my 10% overclocking, but they were noisy to start with. the case isn't warm to the touch, but i can feel a slight vibration of the sheet metal, so i expect that some damping material should help. but i've yet to find a supplier who's shipping costs aren't as much as the material itself.

[cornieleous]

i don't have any sound isolation, but i was thinking of adding some.

I have some ideas about this that I would like to share, as I hate to see money wasted.

This route will cost a lot more than a large fan (say 120mm- very silent and moves much air) Sound absorbtion materials will not be nearly as effective at reducing noise, but will remove the case's ability to effectively get rid of heat if it is a metal case. Personally I think it is a bogus idea that makes money for retailers but does little for customers. Preventing noise in the first place by buying quality devices is the way to go.

Also, about cooling:

Usually, many fans is not the correct answer. Fans move air around things, they do not magically cool them. Airflow management is the key. For proper cooling you need 3 things:

1> positive airflow in the case (more comes in than out)
2> cool enough ambient air inside the case (if you have 80 degree temp in your room, the comp will not be able to cool down with such warm air)
3.> the air must be removed from devices quickly (this means proper airflow) If you have fans pointed every which way in the case, chances are that you have produced strange currents in your case that actually contradict proper airflow and may leave pockets of heated air near your devices. Proper positioning of drives, cables, and PCI cards in the case can help to maximize airflow.

The best cooling is achieved with simple designs, such as: air coming in the front of the case at bottom front, exiting the case at the top rear, with very slightly less air exiting than entering (positive air pressure). Power supply fans, although they often take on the task of removing air from the CPU area, are not typically to be relied upon as the rear case fan. Always have a rear case fan separate from the PS.

Thats all I have to say about that. I would be interested if anyone has a success story about putting acoustic material in a comp to reduce noise, because I just dont buy it.


Dave

[SoulFood]

thx for your thoughts cornieleous!

So has anybody ave one of those sound kits glued on their comp? what do you think of it if you do?

[RevMen]

Sound absorbtion materials will not be nearly as effective at reducing noise, but will remove the case's ability to effectively get rid of heat if it is a metal case. Personally I think it is a bogus idea that makes money for retailers but does little for customers. Preventing noise in the first place by buying quality devices is the way to go.

Dampening material attached to the metal sheeting will prevent sound from transmitting through the casing. As you say, though, it will also prevent some heat from transmitting. It's not that the dampening material absorbs sound from the air, it just adds weight and dampening to the metal itself to kill some of the sound energy there. Therefore, it can be placed on the outside of the case and still be effective.

The best way to kill computer sound is with quiet, effective fans. I have an Antec Sonata case with a Zalman CPU cooler and an Arctic Cooler video card cooler and it is unbelievably quiet. You really have to stop and listen carefully before you can tell the computer is on by sound.

I don't try to overclock these days as the benefit simply isn't what it once was. I used to have an Abit BP6 with dual, overclocked 366 Celeron's and that thing absolutely flew. These days you can hardly tell the difference if you have a few hundred extra MegaHertz.

[cornieleous]

It's not that the dampening material absorbs sound from the air, it just adds weight and dampening to the metal itself to kill some of the sound energy there. Therefore, it can be placed on the outside of the case and still be effective.

You make a fine point. Vibration is something to be eliminated for a DAW, and I should have certainly addressed that in my post, but neglected to. It seemd that the previous posts were condsidering acoustic materials as a solution to actual fan noise and such, rather than vibrations transmitted through the case. Perhaps I misunderstood the gist of the discussion put forth by SoulFood and Heretec.

I do have damping on my own case's removeable sidepanels, and between all seams where metal joins metal. My wondeful Lian Li case, already fairly silent, was made practically impervious to vibration. Damping material WILL help vibration, as will rubber grommets for fan mounting and hard drives.

The damping I have used in my case was applied in a manner that negates temperature increases, and is only targeted at vibration. I did not observe any temp increase after installing this material, but I used it very sparsely.

Anyway, rather than buying expensive stuff online, I applied dhesive backed super dense foam rubber of two types, layered alternately in 3 layers per side, 1 layer between seams. I used about six thin sheets that were 8.5" x 11", and placed them in the center of the case side panels, with tiny strips on my cases seams. Total money spent on this project: about 5$, and I got the materials easily at a local store.


Dave

[jonnyc]

i'd go with liquid cooling, silent, you can overclock a lot easier with water cooling, can get pricey but i think 200 should do you.

[cornieleous]

i'd go with liquid cooling

I am curious if you have a liquid cooling system you can tell us about used in combination with a DAW? Not heard of any first hand experiences with them yet.


I have avoided this option due to its high price, as well as the need for maintenence. I believe that waterblocks need only be refilled about once a month (if that) with the newer liquid cooling systems, which is not tht bad. I have heard some liquid cooling has audible fans on the waterblock unit...which would negate the silence of this method.

As for the issue of price, I have only spent about 80 dollars for my very quiet air cooling solutions, all from SilenX (not including a silent power supply, which would be separate anyway). My fans are super quiet, and my hard drive remains the loudest part of my system (seagate barracuda V SATA 7200.7 80GB) For me, the price difference would make going with liquid cooling kind of pointless.

regards,
D.

[Heretec]

hey guys, i thought i would give a bit of an important update.

i got a uad1 dsp card about a month ago. as i started to use it more heavily, it started giving me problems with dropouts and distortion. after a very frustrating excercise in trial and error, i learned that the uad1 card is very sensitive to pci bus timing, and by having my cpu overclocked, i was in effect causing my memory and pci bus to run slower (rounding down to the nearest even fraction of the cpu speed, instead of going up with it.)

so now i'm back to the factory clock speed, and a small adjustment to my pci latency, and it's smooth sailing once again.

[halfpower]

It might be interesting if you could find a way to overclock the soundcard. It might be possible to bring the sample rates up a bit. Does any one know if any sound cards will run on a external word clock that runs above 192KHz?

[mcatalao]

Soundcard overclock????

Never heard of it, and i dont't think it is possible...

Overclocking in CPU's is possible because this cpus are made to handle some more than it has to handle... It's like creating a building with 20 floors.... The resistance of the foundations can go up to 30 floors but for security reasons the architect built only 20...

Also it is a lot to do with the component's speed...

While in the cpu case you are overclocking just one component, in the case of the audiocart you woukd have to overclock at least two components... The DSP (Digital Signal Processos) and the ADC/DAC (Analogue to Digital Conversor and vice versa).

There are some things you have to notice here. All these components have write and read times, they all have direct connections between them. They all have specific delays in the data flow over those connections. These delays and write and read times depend on the phisical characteristics of the components.
If for example you'd change the speed of the dsp (and we are not talking about a 15 % increase, we are talking at least aout a 200% increase), the dsp, would heat up so much that it's phisical behaveour would change (a lot!!!), even if it did'nt burn it would'nt be working...

ANYWAY, back to the cpu ovk...

IMHO, overcloking is overkill... Overkill means that, in a very simplistic way, you are going to spend your money in too many assessories, like a different cooler (i.e. a water cooler), another set of case coolers, temperature meters, speed controllers for all cooler, 2 or 3 extra coolers... Man, it's a computer, not an airplane...

I have a friend who spent about 150 € buying a big set of junk to get his 2.4 GHz processor working at 2.8 GHz... With 155 € i bougth a brand new Intel at 3.0 GHz... See what i mean???? Overkill.

My 0.02 €!!!

(as in My 2 (euro)cents... ...)

[halfpower]

I think it is possible to overclock a sound card. It would, however, be very to extremely difficult. CPUs are easy to overclock because many motherboards have special built-in programs and packaged software that make the process very simple. Some people are able to keep overclocked hardware cool with out purchasing any additional cooling devices. Personally I've never had much interst in overclocking. I'm not sure why people do it. I have heard, though, of some people overclocking memory/front side buses and video cards.

While you may have to run both the A/D and D/A converters at a faster speed to overclock a sound card, it may be that they run on the same clock and all you really have to do is speed up this clock. I'm no hardware expert, but it maybe that the DSP can process data far faster than the sound card can output it. I imagine this would depend very much on what the DSP was doing. I would certainly hesitate to say that any of this would produce unmanageable heat.

It may be overkill to overclock, but 250KHz audio might be interesting. You might also be able to do more effects, and effects of greater complexity if the DSP is overclocked.

[mcatalao]

You are mixing up things...

DSP's are way different than CPU's.

DSP's are microcontollers specific for signal threatment... Anyway i ask you where can you find a 250 kHz clock source...

Other than that, there is a case where a DSP was "upgraded", the case of the motu cards ad324 where they could manage to get their card working at 96 kHz where it was first released at 48...

But then again, it wasn't an overclock, but an upgrade, or the reusing of a feature stated in the dsp datasheet.

I still don't believe in an audiocard overclock, things are not controlled by any other device... In the case of the cpu you set from the FSB, to the vcore, to memory related features...
You do not know how the rest of the card was built...
What are you going to controll on you soudcard? External Sync? That is even nonsence, since external sync locks up at one of the standart sample rates...