Review and Discussion of Cubase from SX1 to V5

[admin]

A Logical Look
at Cubase SX
Making the decision: SX, Sonar, Mac-Logic
By Rich the Tweak



http://www.tweakheadz.com/reviews/cubase_sx.htm

http://tweakheadz.com/reviews/review_of_cubase_sx_3.htm

http://www.tweakheadz.com/reviews/revie ... ase_5.html



Steinberg Cubase SX Audio Recording Software (Windows)
More INFO! http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--STECUBASESX


http://www.zzounds.com/a--3745/item--STECUBASESL

[Tweak]

Here's the place you can talk about Cubase SX. Just post a reply to this topic.


Here's some handy links:
Cubase SX/SL Tips&Tricks, Known Issues and Solutions (updated 22. Aug. 2003)
http://forum.cubase.net/cgi-bin/cubase. ... 52896.0523

[alex]

Its kinda funny to hear a Logic user say that Cubase is not Logical. I started on Notator which was the predecessor to Logic on the Atari. I was dragged out to a club Cubase meeting where I saw a 30minute video with a guy working Cubase. I was sold. Notator was so slow compared to the way that Cubase works. Not long after I switched over to Cubase, C-Lab came out with Logic. It sorta looked like Cubase with the track colum and arrange page, but I imagine that in order to avoid copywrite infringements, Logic had to work differently than Cubase. ( different keystrokes and such to accomplish the same tasks) Fast forward to a few years ago. I have had Logic on my machine 4 or five times and it is the most illogical, maddening program i have ever used. Total waste of time. Not intuitive at all. If you sent a copy of Logic audio to the planet Vulcan, it would drive them insane within a week....they would see the name of the program, but the fact that it dosent function the way the name suggests would be a massive contradiction to them, and drive them totally insane:-)
Cubase SX is not a good program to be comparing midi functions with Logic. VST 32 has far more midi functionality than SX. According to Steinberg, SX is not an upgrade from VST32 but a completely new beast based more on Nuendo than VST32. They told me that they eventually plan to implement most, if not all of the midi functions from VST, into SX and, that ther wasnt time to get it all in for the initial release. We will have to wait and see if they keep their promise or not.

[Tweak]

Interesting. We were both there on the Atari then with Notator. You went to Cubase and I stuck it out. I eventually became a beta tester for Logic starting with v 2.5 (and still am). So to me, after all these years, Logic makes perfect sense. (which is not to say there aren't some aspects that drive me mad). I used VST around the 3.6 to 3.7 era, and liked some aspects of it. But Logic feels like home to me. Unfortunately, "home" is leaving my platform!

[alex]

When I switched to Cubase I still used Notator for what it was really good at....namely the sys ex stuff that I had learned from Peter Gannon, the maker of Band in a box. His office at that time was about 30minutes from me and for a while he would send me the Atari versions to check out. Notator was a lot friendlier in the editing department for certain things than Cubase , but at the club cubase meetings I lobbied for and got things put into Cubase. One of the weirdest ones that got in was a driver for C-lab Export. Steinberg didnt want to write a driver for that piece because they said that it wasnt accurate. the second and third ports worked on a handshake something or other and consistently dropped bytes. Two of the head guys from Steinberg came to our club cubase meeting where I asked Manfred if they were or were not gonna do a driver for export. I got the usual, politically correct response that they were considering it but no decision had been made yet. After the meeting Ray Williams was asked by Manfred Ruup what we, the members thought about the visit. Ray told them point blank that none of us thought that they were gonna do anything that we had asked for. A week later there was a driver for Export for Cubase.
I tried Logic for the Atari. It was so bug ridden that it went back the next day. Im a pub entertainer that uses sequences for back up. The first version of Logic for the atari wouldnt load its own self generated midifiles back into itself without generating errors. Couldnt use it or wait for a fix as I needed to work. So I went back to being a power Cubase user.

[jsepeta]

I first tried Cubase Mac in the summer of '94 (I think). At the time I was running a PowerMac 7100/80AV, and had souped up the computer with lots of RAM for Photoshop & Premiere. I had been using Vision in a studio, and the choice was between Studio Vision AV & Cubase. I liked a lot of things about Cubase -- the drum machine editor, built-in notation, and an active users group in Chicago -- but I discovered a bug whereby the program wouldn't run if I ran more than 128MB RAM. I took it back to the store right away and moved to Studio Vision AV. A couple of weeks later, a tech called me from Cubase and told me they had fixed the bug, and were offering me 1/2 off price to buy Cubase. Nope, I'd already spent my money on Vision, which had limited integration should I ever move to ProTools.

When my Opcode Studio 4 got zapped in the summer of '98, I picked up a Mac/PC compatible MIDI Timepiece to replace it. I also decided to start fiddling with MIDI on the PC, since Macs cost so damned much and I needed to use PC's for work. I picked up the Dance Pack which came with Recycle and Rebirth for Mac/PC and Cubase 3.5 (I think). It worked ok, but I was really comfortable with Studio Vision Pro on my 8500/9600, so I didn't get too deeply invested in Cubase.

Recently Apple/Emagic announced that they wouldn't support VST under Logic for OSX (I migrated to Logic after a hellish 3 months with Digital Performer). This enticed me to re-affiliate myself with the Cubase camp; I purchased an SX upgrade just a couple of weeks ago. I still haven't gotten the latency issues fixed on my VST's, and I'm not sure who to blame. We'll see how it goes; I've gotten over my prejudices of one platform vs. another, and frankly, most of the stuff I write isn't that complex so as long as the host application has virtual instruments, virtual effects, good timing & is stable, I'll be satisfied.

[Tweak]

Hey Alex, that's a great yarn on Export--so that's how it got supported in Cubase. I got great mileage out of Logic Atari--I even ran Notator as a shell for Soundsurfer both simultaneously multi-tasking with Logic Atari on a 4 meg STe in "softlink". It was a very productive time for me. But you are right on midifiles--for some reason they did not work right back then.

To JSepeta,

I am thinking VSTi can be supported under Audio Units with no loss of functionality. I can't imagine this being handled any other way if Apple want to gain converts to OS X. If they are not careful, they will create a subculture of OS9 lovers among those running studios.

[alex]

Allof the Logic users that are getting SX as a substitute....This may be the time to make your voices heard in the halls of Steinberg. All you gotta to is start lobbying Steinberg for the featured that you loved in Logic to be added to SX. Once again......SX ( according to Steinberg ) is NOT AN UPGRADE FROM VST 32. It is a new animal and they are still deciding which functions from VST they are gonna put into it. SX has a far better audio engine than VST. The same wave file played in both programs sounds better played out of SX. SX sucks for midi compared to VST32. A lot of midi functionality has been left out of SX, because according to Steinberg, they didnt have time to get it all in now.
Make your voices heard....tell Steinberg what youd like to see in SX/Nuendo, as a Logic convert. They have proven in the past that they do listen and respond.

[jsepeta]

There's no reason why a company couldn't make a VSTi wrapper that allows them to work in Core Audio / Audio Units. You're not going to get the same latency as AU; that's understandable. But some of my tools (MTron) will likely never make it to AU, unless the tools that Emagic make are cheap/free and work well without a lot of programmer effort.

Which reminds me of a dumb quote:
"That's the thing about standards: there's so many of them."

As far as creating a subculture of OS9 users, Quark/Avid/Digi have already done that by taking so damned long to bring their OSX products to market. Most serious graphics professionals I know are clinging on to OS9 for dear life -- they're *comfortable* and don't want to buy a bunch of new software, especially in economic times like these.

[mark_knutson]

What is your current thinking regarding going to the mac and keeping logic or going to cubase sx? I heard a rumor, likely baseless, that apple wanted to 'mac' cubase as well. Got me looking into Sonar features--as the last escape hatch. All of my goodies are dx as well as vst except for a recent UAD-1 card.
<br>Then I got to thinking about all of those atari users--and maybe it would be ok to just take SX and win2000 and hunker down with them long after the vendors drop support.<br>Any, probably just a nothing rumor--though Steinberg hasn't denied it--so I should give it no more thought. You may have gathered, I do not consider going apple to be one of my solutions.<br>
I have a Delta 1010 per your recommendation, and latency is 256 samples--so all is well in VSTI land.

[jsepeta]

Apple has done a pretty good job of inspiring 3rd parties to support their platform, considering all they have going against them -- I mean, the biggest complaint most people make is that there are so few Macs and so many more PC's. Apple holds perhaps 3-5% of the overall market, but in pro music circles, it's likely closer to 80% thanks to the strength of OMS and ProTools. In contrast, Microsoft has stolen so much tech from so many 3rd party companies and even their PARTNERS that they are likely doing irreparable harm to the platform. It takes a special kind of company to keep being successful once Microsoft has decided to start eating your slice of pie. One good example of a company who has suffered at the hands of Microsoft is Netscape.

Alas, this past year or two has shown that Apple will do whatever they can to adopt cool technologies and make them their own. For instance, iTunes is mostly a graphical re-write of an MP3 player that was sold by another company; Apple hired away their programmer and paid the company so that they could re-label it as an Apple product which is now FREE for all Apple customers and bundled with the iPod. And Apple snatched a number of high-end video companies to help solidify their hold on the pro digital video market. Apple's hiring of the guy from Opcode who developed OMS was seen as a good thing -- after all, Apple's efforts to weld digital audio & MIDI to the underside of OSX can only benefit that platform. But many in the industry don't like their purchase of Emagic, since this could likely weaken Cubase and Digital Performer sales on the OSX platform, much like Apple's Final Cut Pro has demolished sales of Adobe Premiere and Adobe After Effects. I think there's plenty of room for competitors though -- the trick is to GROW the market so that there are more people creating music, not just consuming it.

It is not likely that Apple will purchase Cubase -- Steinberg has far too much invested in the PC platform to bow out, especially now that the market has been slimmed down to them and Cakewalk Sonar. And although Apple has plenty of cash on hand, the rumor was that Apple had been in talks with another company and was turned down before they approached Emagic -- that other company was likely either MOTU or Steinberg. I was kind of surprised that they didn't go after MOTU, since it was already a Mac-only product, but compared to Logic, it's missing some features that the pros look for -- like how Logic more easily integrates into a ProTools environment through their sytem bridge -- also, how you can add multiple hardware controllers for use in Logic, not just one as in Cubase SX. But I think if Cubase can build support for their VST link, Logic will have a credible threat on its hands.

It will be interesting to see how fast vendors are able to develop instruments and effects for the new Audio Units format. I'd like to see how their performance compares with DX, with which I'm not terribly familiar. The sub-2ms latencies promised by Logic OSX are kind of mind-boggling. Me, I plan to try some VST link-action this Xmas, as my work slows to a crawl and I'm able to spend some time getting my various PC's to work in harmony.

[Ivan McKinney]

Now that the 2.8 and even 3.0 Ghz CPU's are out, I'd be interested in
knowing the MAX number of Audio track SX can handle. And that's
BEFORE "ANY" VST/DX Effects are added, which would reduce that
number QUITE a BIT!!!!

[n0_key]

I don't know about you SX users out there, but what's really really REALLY bugging me, is the SysEx problem SX has.
It just doesn't do SysEx (properly). Playing, after importing, for instance the 'Best Of' AN1x soundset in SysEx, does not only hang SX, but also my AN1x!

I've been searching the Steinberg forums about it, and it seems this problem is known from the first few days SX came out.
Also, the Midex interfaces are very buggy. Some users report the Midex8 having trouble with SysEx! And that besides timing problems and the interface sometimes just not appearing when starting the DAW up.

I guess I needed to get rid of this...

[admin]

Thanks for the report on this.

[arrows]

First time in here. Will post a similar in a new topic...
Read thru the thread, and would preface my problem inquiry with the mention that I am an Atari Notator user from way back, did not like Logic, did some album projects on a Mac with DP3, loved the DP3, didn't like file management and slow cursors, etc. Long standing PC user who is generally happy with Cubase sx 1.0.
However I have a snag.....
I use SX on 4 different computers (98se, 2000, XP, XP Pro) and it is mostly stable. BUT on one computer ONLY (XP Pro) , I get ticks and pops (very tiny) right in the wave form. Can see them and edit them out (mostly) in Sound Forge. I have a SB Live Card and Edirol USB audio in. I have tried both input configurations, checked cords, etc. Problem grows more bothersome until you have to restart SX, or reboot. Using a good mic, and tube preamp. No ticks when I record in Acid. I have been thru ASIO settings a million times. Is there a patch or has anyone heard of this? Some audio engine crashes, too.
Help!

[DjSoY]

i don't know if this would be a bug but Cubase v1.05 gives out a mono output on their midi instruments...I wonder...my sound card is yamaha XG..old school but cool....even with rewire vst plug in with REASON 2.0 when activating MIX L and MIX R...MIX L and MIX L comes out..giving out mono Left sounds....it bugs me a lot...so far no latency problems for me and my quickshot

[Tweak]

arrows--

troubleshooting those little pops can drive one mad. There's no telling where the problem lies, you just have to start troubleshooting and hope you find it in short order.

Here's my guide to troubleshooting:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/troubleshooti ... _cards.htm

[DjSoY]

Fixed the issue...my gosh...I think its the stupid small panning tweaker....i tried reinstalling all the appz...the trouble now would be latency...TWEAK.... REASON 2.0 have big latencies on SX...Is this becaUSE of the Operating system (win98se) or my sound card (yamaha XG)?

here are my specs:
Geforce 2 GTS (w/tv out)
256 DDR RAM (PQI)
Athlon +1700
ECS MAINBOARD K7S5A + SiSAC97 sound card built in
MAXTOR 5400RPM 10 GIG
Yamaha XG-Dxxxx (i forgot)

And ASIO seems to have to modes...full duplex and multimedia...full duplex wont work on me....but I think it should....anyway...I'm trying to eliminate latency.....would sb live 5.1 do...with ASIO drivers on the net of course...


HELP ME!...I desire to make dance trax!

[Tweak]

Answered you elsewhere. No, not a soundblaster; your experience will not be much different. Look at M-audio's 24/96

[DjSoY]

dude....if anyone needs help from the issue i had...i can send them a text file on how to drop latency....i think yamaha xg only has 5 ms...no bullsh*t....THANKS a LOT for the effort! really appreciated it!


now...I only need yer tips dude Tweak....I'm working on my bass tracks on Cubase SX now...how do i put my bass tracks (by A1 vst instrument plug-in in CUBASE SX) exact with the REASON's Redrum? cuz at first...it goes well timed and in beat...in turn...I usually open the midi editor....copy all....repeat 20 times....and in an instant I can spread the midi track like a loop as cakewalk softwares do....but THE MAJOR PROBLEM IS "it goes out of beat midway"....

SHOULD I MASTER LISTENING TO METRONOME while playing? or SHOULD I RESORT TO FRUITY LOOPS FOR BASS LINES INSTEAD? I know fruityloops 3.56 can be used as a VST.....darn life

I still desire making dance trax!

Also...I heard SB live 5.1 has only 2ms latency.....or M-audio's 24/96 is really different...how much latency? does it support my old school QUICKSHOT?

[DjSoY]

BWHAHAHAA! Just figured things out!! HAHAHAHA!!! SO MUCH FUN IN COMPOSING!!! I'm off to a new LEVEL.....If anyone would like infos I'd sure would like to help...just post at the forum.....

CUBASE SX is the BEST!!!! it really puts you on the FLY!!!!

now...the secret of creating things is up to your DARN learning CURVE.....I'l be posting more...only on weekdays in my time!



I DESIRE TO MAKE DANCE TRAX!

[PeterKF]

I'm new here and you'll see how I got here in a minute. I started with Atari too--Hybrid Arts--and guess what? I'm still using it. Which shows that my MIDI sequencer needs are not what you call demanding. Paired with the Atari was an Tascam 8-track. Then I jumped fairly early into DAW with an MTU rig. Probably not familiar to many, but great sound, great editing, major stability. But they more or less fell by the wayside, never getting sufficient market penetration. Now their flagship product is karaoke and DAW is a sweet memory.

I have kept on using the MTU rig--it's home, still works great, etc. But I really have to join the modern world. Though I have no fondness for Microsoft, I've always been PC and intend to stay with it. So I find the only choices I have are Steinberg and Cakewalk. Research led me to Rich's comparison article.

I was very pleased to see the sections on the offline processing and new audio engine in Cubase SX. I have read other reviews that lacked this zeroing in on essential matters. What Rich said about those aspects swung me back towards Cubase SX. I had swung towards Sonar after visiting the Steinberg forums, where there seem to be a lot of unhappy people. Sonar seemed to be less troubled and a more focused PC product. But my number 1 top primo concern is sound quality. This is something that reviewers don't seem to address much with audio sequencers and I don't understand why. Rich's review inclines me to think that I can accept other problems with Cubase SX if it's going to give me the best sound quality (other than going to Nuendo, which doesn't match my needs very well). So question #1 is: Is there something I'm ignoring or missing in coming to this conclusion? Question #2 is: I have found no mention anywhere of SMPTE capabilities in Cubase SX (and trying to get an email answer from Steinberg was fruitless). Does Cubase SX read and lock to SMPTE?

Thanks,
Peter

[DjSoY]

Ey DUDE! I came accross that SMPTE thing....in the VST section of my Cubase SX.....While trying to insert Audio Plugin in one of my Track...I saw a SMPTE Generator...i dunno where I got it...but I can send it to ya...I think Steinberg doesn't have it as a default for Cubase Sx...

For good sound quality and full control of what you are making...GET Cubase Sx....but if you want certain quality limitations and KEWL and Easy Way of controlling loopz...get Sonar 2....both needs a lot of RAM...At some point having 256mb ddr ram doesn't even give stability that you will need in the future

Right now, I'm still learning some more....like how to control fruityloops vsti in Cubase Sx....it seems to be buggy...

I DESIRE TO MAKE DANCE TRAX!

[PeterKF]

I saw mention of a SMPTE generator plug-in on the Steinberg forum, but what I need to ascertain is that Cubase SX will lock to incoming SMPTE. I will need to transfer multitrack audio into a new rig. I already have several ways of generating SMPTE. I just need to know that I can get the transfered tracks to sync up properly when they're recorded into Cubase SX. The incoming SMPTE would be routed through a SMPTE-capable LynxTwo audio card, by the way.

I'd like to assume that an application of this stature would of course have that function, but I've found making assumptions about what software can do is a bad way to go...
Peter

[doktorziplok]

ok, csx in it's current form is buggy. if/when you get it i would suggest updating to 1.03.xxx (NOT 1.05.xxx) and leave it alone until 1.06 or whatever comes next is out (next update should be in a month or two, we've been waiting since dec. 2, 2002 for an update).

to answer you sync question: cubase can sync to smpte (and many others). it can also transmit mmc, midi timecode (which the operations manual lumps smpte, ebu, mtc, vitc, adat together as midi timecode), and midi clock.

here's a link to the steinberg forums about a q similar to yours: http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum2/HTML/045776.html