Review and Discussion of Sonar 2.0

[admin]

Review of Sonar 2.0
Cakewalk's Digital MultiTrack Recording System
by Rich the Tweak

Can be read here: http://www.tweakheadz.com/reviews/review_of_sonar.htm


http://www.studio-central.com/cgi-bin/z ... Name=sonar

[Tweak]

To discuss Sonar, please Post a Reply to this topic. Thanks!

[Tweak]

Sonar 2.1 is available for download for registered users

www.cakewalk.com

[Norse]

Hi Rich!

I've been reading your good sequencer articles with interest as I'm about to settle for a PC program to use professionally and seing as Logic is out it is between Sx and Sonar isn't it. I see you've had to make the same choice and have opted for the SX as mainstay and Sonar for loppwork.

I started out with Cakewalk but switched to Cubase because of their better graphics and faster interface, but here's the thing: I went over some old material recently and was shocked to hear how more fat the sound was from the old cakewalk takes compared to all my Cubase stuff.

Is it possible that DirectX actually sound better than ASIO? I mean, do the low latency that directX (or Dxi now) can produce tell of a totally different audio handling that might after all be superior to any other as it's the inherent protocol or is this going too far?

Anyway, I was just taken by the full sound on my old cakewalk 5 songs and I'm curious if anybody else has noticed anything similar. If it is true then I will go for the Sonar despite it's poor graphics and traditionally cumbersome interface. Shouldn't it (ver 2) also be more stable than Cubase as it is a more 'native' windows program?

I just can't decide, but one thing that really interests me and which was not in your article was the new OPT protocol by Yamaha that Sonar supports which allows for seamless MIDI hardware integration a bit like Sounddiver with Logic which is THE most useful thing. Has anyone tried it out fully??

[Tweak]

Asio and direct X really only affect sound to the extent that different plugins are used. They do seem to handle audio differently, but it should not affect the sound, which is only data (numbers) at the driver level. The DACs on your audio interface might account for the difference in sound if you changed them recently. Haven't heard of the Yamaha OPT protocol. I can't imagine Yamaha doing anything to help midi/hardware integration on machines other than their own--I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did. And doubly surprised if other companies went along with it.

[Norse]

Thanks for the reply!

I too would have doubts that Yamaha will be a universal thing, but the ad looks good: http://www.yamahasynth.com/pro/opt/index.html

About DX vs ASIO:

When you say that f.i. SX sounds good do you only speak of EQ algorithms and suchlike? I have read a few mastering articles to know that digital is not really lossless and that only a few programs will treat the incoming DS with respect. (i.e. Sonic Solutions)

If ASIO have larger latencies than DX isn't that just an indication that the signal path have more potentially destructive processes to go through?
I don't know, but the soundcard has stayed the same (Yamaha DS2416) during my trials with both Cakewalk and Cubase.

I guess what I am really asking is why when you speak highly of Sonar do you not use it in your everyday productions? Is really Logic that far ahead? I was about to go for Logic/Sounddiver myself but as it will be discontinued for the PC then...

[Tweak]

I use logic because I have used emagic sequencers for 14 years. I am a tester for emagic, and I no longer have to think about the interface when writing music. When I use Sonar or SX I have to think about what I want to do and how to get there. Asio usually has better "smaller" latencies than DX, but now they are getting pretty close. Good sound is hard to quantify. Yes, eqs, plugins, the gain structure of the mixer all play a role. Some people go as far to say, with the interface being neutral, that SX sounds warm and Logic sounds brittle, but that is really the equivalent of saying a religion is better, IMO.

I know I like my vocal tracks run through logic and I like the way SX deals with soft synths. Nothing beats Sonar for loops. I love how Logic does MIDI and I really don't like Sonar's midi implementaton. But I wrote several articles on the subject...

[enTRAP]

Crew,

When I started reading all your articles Rich, you made me go almost completely nuts for Logic because of how highly you held it and I read all about it, gawked at all their articles and their pretty little website. I couldn't afford to get it, but I'm glad I didn't now that crApple took over. I stuck with Sonar mainly because:

A) I had it

B) One of the other digital producers I look up (my boy Victor-ious) has been using Cakewalk software for years and recommended it to me when I told him I was interested in sequencing with Midi. I bought it, picked it up, and learned it quickly.

C) And the chances of Cakewalk dropping support for Windows platforms is pretty non-existant. I used to work tech support and people get pretty pissed off when your answer to their problem is "We don't support it."

I don't know which if either is better, ASIO or WDM, but have not run into problems or preferences with either. In my opinion, when it comes down to it, even if, say, an algorithim used by an ASIO driver clearly process audio better than the DX driver and this is backed up by fact, that slightly better processing is going to be degraded as soon as the song is converted to 16bit for CD's. I don't see how ASIO is faster or more stable or anything like some people suggest, but VST and ASIO are more widespread, just because of the number of platforms that support it, and Mac's don't use DX or WDM at all.

I'm not knocking Cubase or Logic at all. Well, I am knocking Logic a bit, but I'm just saying I don't have a problem or complaint with Sonar. I am please with the sound I get, and don't have any performance problems that I cant fix with adjusting a setting. The majority of plugs I use are DX and I use some VST with DirectiXer, but mainly use the DX's just because I'm more familiar with them and because wrapping uses a bit of processing and can choke a bit. I have a feeling Cakewalk is just going to get better with DX because of WindowsXP. There are some Mac users turning to PC's because they're dirt cheap right now, and from what I understand and hear, XP is rock solid and performs really, really well with multimedia. The bottom line is, don't nitpick. Cubase, Logic and Sonar are all excellent sequencers. Don't worry about algorithims slightly degrading your sound quality. You are only as good as you know how to use your sequencer. And equipment.

Sorry about the preachyness. My medication makes me ramble. No joke.

Peace,

[Wil]

This is true of Cakewalk products up to Sonar 1.3: contrary to other audio products on the PC, Cakewalk sequencers tend to use the CPU at 100% when playing, even a simple MIDI file. This I see with the TaskManager 2000. I don't know why, since others don't. The CPU gets hot (this I see on the VIA hardware monitor), and so it will die sooner. It seems a big disadvantage of Sonar. To be precise, my CPU is an AMD under Win98, it uses the HLT instruction to cool down, maybe you will notice nothing with yours.

[aithien]

I just started using Cakewalk Sonar 2.0 from Pro Audio 9 to do my sequencing, "pre-mixing" and recording audio (I then export it to Nuendo for the real mixing/production). I've always found Cakewalk products to be bounds ahead of other products as far as productive arrangement (specifically in staff view), and effectively combining that with audio. Sonar XL 2.0 doesn't let me down in this regard, but Sonar 1.3 and lower were TERRIBLE. The interface was cool, but I couldn't get anything done without it crashing. 2 seems to have fixed that. It still crashes every once in a while, but it's generally working good.

In fact from what I can tell, SONAR 2.0 XL should be able to do almost all the things I can do in Nuendo, but I feel way more comfortable in a stable product like Nuendo. Plus SONAR doesn't have nearly the support for surround mixing. Of course it just doesn't have a truly proffesional mixing/"production interface" like Nuendo does, in general. But for sequencing, and arrangement, it's effective and has a great workflow path.

[Slimchance24]

Just got my copy of Sonar 2.2 (upgrading from PA9). So far I am liking it. As you all probably know by now, Sonar supports ASIO (not that that was a factor for me, I just noticed a lot of discussion about it posted on the board).
I upgraded because I wanted to use ACIDized loops with my audio/midi. I have ACID 2.0 but wanted a program that would combine all the features of PA9 , ACID Pro and have the ability to actually take an audio clip and make an acidized loop from it. I also could never get used to the now time cursor control feature of ACID or it's way of saving files, it used to drive me nuts after using Cakewalk. Now I have an interface that I am (kinda) used to which will do all I need and a whole lot more, (some of which is beyond me right now)!
I am new to DXi plug-ins so am looking forward to learning how to use them...it seems like soon I won't need external hardware at all! (except may be a little Steinberger GT Pro).
So far have had no problems with Sonar stability, although have had 'dropouts' a couple of times. I think that this is a problem with my old Gina 20 souncard drivers, I have the latest upgrade, but they are 'beta' and I may have to consider buying a new card here soon. Anyone got any recommends? I was going to go with Gina 24 as I had so much luck using Gina 20 / PA9 and my old computer running Win98.
I am also getting clicks, pops and sometimes distortion when playing back audio once in a while. e.g. one ACID loop I was using in a project started to distort during playback after adding a number of other loops. I fixed the problem by 'normalizing' it! weird? It was a commercially made loop from a Sonic Foundry CD and I figured that it would already be 'normalized'. Why would it sound fine for a while and then distort later? (didn't touch any settings on the track).
Also, am getting a LOT of noise along with the signal when using 'revalver' with my guitar, wonder if it's coming from the computer? (using a Strat with noiseless pickups). Also had to increase latency to 1.5msec (max available) so as to be able to use in real time to monitor during recording. My computer had no problem with this, but some might. It seems to have potential if only I could get rid of the noise. Easy to save a setting along with a work file. Guess for now i'll have to keep my old Digitech 2120 in service.

Thanks to Rich for a great site,

[aviroger]

Slimchance...
I've had the Sonar 2.2 xl and Echo's Layla 24 for a while now, and am impressed with the flexibility of the Layla. S/PDIF + optical + 8 analog in/out (balanced). Nice console software also. Good luck on the new card.

[Tweak]

Spend some time with the Sonar help files on buffers. You can probably cure all your current ills. It is usally good advice to update your drivers as well.

[tor]

instrument definitions. I am a Pro Audio 9 user ready to upgrade to Sonar and Project 5. However, I need to use the soft synth as a stand alone synth. You mentioned (you were the first) instrument definition files for soft synths. Do you know if they supply an ins file with softsynths like NI FM7 or Kontackt or Project 5? I need to be able to play it from Band in a Box live as well as through Sonar

[enTRAP]

Cakewalk would definitely have made a big mistake not including instrument definitions for P5 in Sonar. Yes, they did. Many, many VSTi's and DXi's transfer this information to Sonar, but I believe it's coded into the dll, bank or preset file though so you can select from the track view. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way to export this information to an INS file.

[Tweak]

As enTrap mentions, the patch names are inside the plugin--there is no need for an .ins with these.

[JDaweG]

Hello Rich,

Thanks for writing the in-depth review of Sonar 2.0; I enjoy your reviews for their "meatiness" which is hard to find online (well, for me at least!). I've now been using Sonar 2.x for about 1/2 year and find it really easy to use and fairly powerful, tho without really having much of a basis for comparison since it's the only "real" sequencer that I've used yet. I wanted to check out your review again after reading it some time ago to see basically how Sonar stacks up against the competition and whether it would be good to switch entirely to something else (like Cubase). Because, well, I've encountered a problem with Sonar that I don't think has to do with my setup, although feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and which to my surprise I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else.

People have often lauded Sonar's ACID-like audio looping feature (Groove Clips), and on the surface it IS a great idea. You can take any audio clip, groovify it, and then time-and-pitch stretch it to your heart's content, while looping it... Sign me up! HOWEVER -- Sonar's actual implemention of this feature I find leaves much to be desired in the quality of the audio output. Whenever I timestretch a groove clip, or even a normal audio clip under Sonar, it introduces some nasty "stuttering" which renders this feature pretty much unusable for me. I know that it's possible to do this without said stuttering, as I've downloaded and used the demo version of an audio utility called Expander, which stretches audio "perfectly" (to my ears, anyway).

Just wanted to say this, and see if anyone else shares my view, or if my setup's somehow at fault (doubt it, as everything else under Sonar works fine, and I have a pretty good understanding of how the buffer sizes, etc., affect audio output).

P. S. - Great website, I will have to make this a regular stomping grounds.

[Paleplayer]

So does anyone have an opinion about SONAR 3 yet?

[Tweak]

There's only so far you can stretch loops before nasty artifacts happen. Dedicated time compression offline plugins may do a better job, but keep in mind sonar does this in real time, while the clock is running.

Sonar 3 looks great. Won't be out till October.

[jlgrimes11]

For sampling vinyl I like recycle and Reason. Dr. Rex allows you to play your chops from the midi keyboard.